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Guys and Gals, how many times have we been through this now?

ryd75

All-Conference
Jan 31, 2005
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Every year we have 1 or 2 top kids leave the state in basketball and/or football and every time they do we found out later just how lucky we were that they left or we never hear much out of them again. So, why are we so upset now? Both Hill and Allen will likely be added to the list of unfortunate kids who end up M.I.A. in the college sports world after all of this.
 
Every year we have 1 or 2 top kids leave the state in basketball and/or football and every time they do we found out later just how lucky we were that they left or we never hear much out of them again. So, why are we so upset now? Both Hill and Allen will likely be added to the list of unfortunate kids who end up M.I.A. in the college sports world after all of this.

This has to be sarcasm. Every kid we get, we wanted, every one we didn't, destined for failure? There is without a doubt a problem keeping top flight recruits that we want in Basketball in state. It stings to lose 1 of 25 in football, it really stings to lose 1 of 3 in Basketball on back to back years. I'm a huge MA fan and hope he pulls a rabbit out of a hat somewhere, but it's hard to not have some pessimism right now with who all we've struck out on, that we desperately needed after Portis and Qualls left. And before anyone says we weren't on Allen etc etc, he and everyone in the state of Arkansas knew we wanted him and that the only stated reason he was leaving was donovan. Well a guy he's never met that coached in Ruston last year just locked him up over his home state. That's a big problem and a big loss for the program, regardless of what anyone tells themself.
 
This has to be sarcasm. Every kid we get, we wanted, every one we didn't, destined for failure? There is without a doubt a problem keeping top flight recruits that we want in Basketball in state. It stings to lose 1 of 25 in football, it really stings to lose 1 of 3 in Basketball on back to back years. I'm a huge MA fan and hope he pulls a rabbit out of a hat somewhere, but it's hard to not have some pessimism right now with who all we've struck out on, that we desperately needed after Portis and Qualls left. And before anyone says we weren't on Allen etc etc, he and everyone in the state of Arkansas knew we wanted him and that the only stated reason he was leaving was donovan. Well a guy he's never met that coached in Ruston last year just locked him up over his home state. That's a big problem and a big loss for the program, regardless of what anyone tells themself.
Kevaughn Allen had a handler, and his handler is very anti hog. I'd be shocked if Kahn didn't receive a "special gift" for Kevaughns signature.
 
This has to be sarcasm. Every kid we get, we wanted, every one we didn't, destined for failure?

That is not the point of the OP at all. He is simply pointing out that the track record of Arkansans leaving the state to play elsewhere is riddled with examples of those who failed to meet expectations. While it would be impossible to truly link the two, it does appear that those who are looking to leave are less likely to succeed at the higher levels for whatever reason.
 
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That is not the point of the OP at all. He is simply pointing out that the track record of Arkansans leaving the state to play elsewhere is riddled with examples of those who failed to meet expectations. While it would be impossible to truly link the two, it does appear that those who are looking to leave are less likely to succeed at the higher levels for whatever reason.

Yep, for the most part this is true.
 
Thanks, admiral, that is exactly what I am saying. I realize that this thread doesn't fit the agenda of the doom and gloomers whining about losing Allen but it is true. Very few leave this state and do well in either sport.
 
Much more glaring in basketball than football. We needed Anderson. Wouldn't have got Qualls if Goodwin comes. SO came out better in that deal really. Jury still out on KA. In football I do not worry about any one single recruit leaving the state. Gonna happen and if we get the majority we offer in state, then that is fine in football.
 
Here we go with the "if you leave you won't do well non sense"...guess what if they don't do well somewhere else they probably won't do well here either. This board makes intelligent people say some ignorant stuff...Joe Johnson would have been a great talent regardless where he went to school, Ronnie Brewer the same way...the guys who didn't have success, wouldn't have had success other places either. Of course there are exceptional circumstances, and situational factors, but assuming all things are even it's not going to matter. Talented players who are well coached perform at high levels.
 
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Thanks, admiral, that is exactly what I am saying. I realize that this thread doesn't fit the agenda of the doom and gloomers whining about losing Allen but it is true. Very few leave this state and do well in either sport.

It's not about "doom and gloom" it's about the realization that if you wish to have prolonged success it's imperative that you have talent and lots of it...we don't have lots of talent, hence when you have talent in your backyard, then it becomes that much more important that you secure that talent. When you don't secure the necessary talent, then it becomes a concern...there's no reason at this point that we should be "rebuilding", or that we should expect a poor season. That's my personal opinion, I support Mike, but this off season has been a cluster...
 
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Time to time it becomes apparent that some come to the message board posing as part of the family, but are here only to disrupt it. Trolling is at its core, anti-social behavior. I have to say, that from day one, in what normally is a sea of red and white, you have on blue and white. It, at the least, sparked a notion of oddness in me , but I shrugged it off and continued reading your posts. Over a short time, I have come to the conclusion that through your pithy put-downs, Ad hominem attacks to negate an opinion by alleging negatives about a person/program, or the people who support that program; that you must be a troll. All to gain attention, recognition(even if it is negative), to provide a emotional release by venting which is most likely caused by personal short comings. Trolls get thrills out of sabotaging a thread or a board. It feeds their braggadocio. Trolls will span decades to unearth the dirt they need to prove themselves right, although it most likely has nothing to do with the current state of affairs. It gives them a sense of false power. Due to their personal insecurities and this need to feel right, this anti-social behavior can turn into a nasty little side show and wreck a message board. So, today, I have found an "oldie but goodie" love of this site, the block button. Goodbye, Mr. Razorback, goodbye.
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James Anderson did ok.
I know you enjoy being the contrarian and just arguing in general. Your point is sound, James had a nice career at Okie Lite.

That said, you can't disagree completely right? You see the trend of these kids leaving and doing nothing. Right?
 
I know you enjoy being the contrarian and just arguing in general. Your point is sound, James had a nice career at Okie Lite.

That said, you can't disagree completely right? You see the trend of these kids leaving and doing nothing. Right?
Yes, of course I agree there is a trend there. Besides from yet another personal attack, this has been a really good thread where people can talk about it. I was just merely stating a fact that there has been players who had success when leaving the state.
 
Time to time it becomes apparent that some come to the message board posing as part of the family, but are here only to disrupt it. Trolling is at its core, anti-social behavior. I have to say, that from day one, in what normally is a sea of red and white, you have on blue and white. It, at the least, sparked a notion of oddness in me , but I shrugged it off and continued reading your posts. Over a short time, I have come to the conclusion that through your pithy put-downs, Ad hominem attacks to negate an opinion by alleging negatives about a person/program, or the people who support that program; that you must be a troll. All to gain attention, recognition(even if it is negative), to provide a emotional release by venting which is most likely caused by personal short comings. Trolls get thrills out of sabotaging a thread or a board. It feeds their braggadocio. Trolls will span decades to unearth the dirt they need to prove themselves right, although it most likely has nothing to do with the current state of affairs. It gives them a sense of false power. Due to their personal insecurities and this need to feel right, this anti-social behavior can turn into a nasty little side show and wreck a message board. So, today, I have found an "oldie but goodie" love of this site, the block button. Goodbye, Mr. Razorback, goodbye.

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I think KJ Hill follows the trend of athletes who leave the state and never amount to anything. Mainly because OSU is loaded with skill players and will continue to recruit better kids than KJ each year. His ego caused him to make a really bad decision IMO.

I think KeVaughn has a pretty good career at Florida. Likely starts his freshman year at some point. The thing I like about KA, and hurts even more, is he is not NBA level player so he's going to contribute for 4 years at Fla. He would have been a great Razorback and fit in great with MA's system. I didn't feel Archie was a huge miss when he left because he had 1 and done potential. I feel KA is a big loss.
 
I tend to think that Kevaughn will only do so-so but that KJ will do well. Having seen them on the basketball court together a couple of times, KJ is the superior athlete. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean anything, but that's part of what I'm basing that off of.
 
That is not the point of the OP at all. He is simply pointing out that the track record of Arkansans leaving the state to play elsewhere is riddled with examples of those who failed to meet expectations. While it would be impossible to truly link the two, it does appear that those who are looking to leave are less likely to succeed at the higher levels for whatever reason.
yeah the problem is the sample size is WAY too small to draw any concrete conclusions like the OP did.
 
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I know you enjoy being the contrarian and just arguing in general. Your point is sound, James had a nice career at Okie Lite.

That said, you can't disagree completely right? You see the trend of these kids leaving and doing nothing. Right?
4 or 5 players leaving and not setting the world on fire is not a trend. Hell half of the ones mentioned haven't even finished their college career yet and you guys are saying they failed. What it AT goes to UNLV and rushed for 1600 yards ? What is Josh Frazier comes on as a JR. and ends up getting drafted the following year after 2 good SEC seasons ? Archie left and did pretty well at Ky and the was drafted after only one year. Seemed to work out OK for him yet he is never mentioned. James Anderson the same. How quickly those success stories are forgotten by some.

You guys are reaching big time.
 
4 or 5 players leaving and not setting the world on fire is not a trend. Hell half of the ones mentioned haven't even finished their college career yet and you guys are saying they failed. What it AT goes to UNLV and rushed for 1600 yards ? What is Josh Frazier comes on as a JR. and ends up getting drafted the following year after 2 good SEC seasons ? Archie left and did pretty well at Ky and the was drafted after only one year. Seemed to work out OK for him yet he is never mentioned. James Anderson the same. How quickly those success stories are forgotten by some.

You guys are reaching big time.
Maybe you're reaching just a tad.
Obviously AT doesn't have break away speed. He spent 2 years at Bama and was buried in the Depth Chart. Transferring to UNLV and rushing for 1600 yards should be kind of expected coming from a 4/5* recruit out of HS (depending which site you vew)

Frazier hasn't done anything worth mentioning. Sure, maybe he "comes on" as a JR. Maybe he doesn't.

Archie didn't have spectacular numbers at KY. he would have had very similar numbers at Arkansas, if not better. Just because he got drafted doesn't mean squat. Last i heard he's playing in the D-league... congrats?
 
yeah the problem is the sample size is WAY too small to draw any concrete conclusions like the OP did.
Actually, statistically speaking, the sample size is plenty large enough. Between both football and basketball, we have a large enough sample to compare those who leave to those who stay. The problem is that we can't identify the true cause without testing psychometrics and that would require all of them participating in a survey.
 
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Maybe you're reaching just a tad.
Obviously AT doesn't have break away speed. He spent 2 years at Bama and was buried in the Depth Chart. Transferring to UNLV and rushing for 1600 yards should be kind of expected coming from a 4/5* recruit out of HS (depending which site you vew)

Frazier hasn't done anything worth mentioning. Sure, maybe he "comes on" as a JR. Maybe he doesn't.

Archie didn't have spectacular numbers at KY. he would have had very similar numbers at Arkansas, if not better. Just because he got drafted doesn't mean squat. Last i heard he's playing in the D-league... congrats?
So for the sake of discussion, if AT doesn't have break away speed and can't climb the depth chart at Bama, why is he going to be a superstar here? If Frazier hasn't done anything at all at Auburn, why is he going to be a standout here?

Is it your argument that our relative lack of talent gives them more opportunity? Even if that means that they they will be competing head to head with the talent they couldn't beat out in the first place?
 
4 or 5 players leaving and not setting the world on fire is not a trend. Hell half of the ones mentioned haven't even finished their college career yet and you guys are saying they failed. What it AT goes to UNLV and rushed for 1600 yards ? What is Josh Frazier comes on as a JR. and ends up getting drafted the following year after 2 good SEC seasons ? Archie left and did pretty well at Ky and the was drafted after only one year. Seemed to work out OK for him yet he is never mentioned. James Anderson the same. How quickly those success stories are forgotten by some.

You guys are reaching big time.
Very predictable from you. You're suggesting guys that have never done a damn thing are going to come on strong and save their careers. Could it happen, sure. But THAT is a reach.
 
Very predictable from you. You're suggesting guys that have never done a damn thing are going to come on strong and save their careers. Could it happen, sure. But THAT is a reach.
But yet you avoid the two players he is correct on.
 
Much more glaring in basketball than football. We needed Anderson. Wouldn't have got Qualls if Goodwin comes. SO came out better in that deal really. Jury still out on KA. In football I do not worry about any one single recruit leaving the state. Gonna happen and if we get the majority we offer in state, then that is fine in football.

why would Arkansas have not gotten Qualls if Archie Goodwin had gone to Arkansas? Where else was Qualls going?
 
Actually, statistically speaking, the sample size is plenty large enough. Between both football and basketball, we have a large enough sample to compare those who leave to those who stay. The problem is that we can't identify the true cause without testing psychometrics and that would require all of them participating in a survey.
ok then, what are the numbers ? what % of players that leave Arkansas turn out to be flops and how does that compare with the national average ?
 
Guys, this doesn't apply to basketball. Since 2003, we've landed every player we've offered in-state except for James Anderson, AJ Walton, Archie Goodwin and now, KeVaughn.

We know about James and Archie. They were high impact players, and went on to the pros. AJ was a multi-year starter, and while unspectacular stats, he would've started here multiple years.

Since 2003, we landed 13 of 17 of the players we offered in-state. Ronnie Brewer, Michael Washington, Sonny Weems, Ky Madden, Bobby Portis all made significant impact. TBD on Anton Beard and Trey Thompson.
 
Here are all the highly recruited/rated guys that left the state (on signing day) over the past 20 years (I'm sure I'll forget some....So, all those I can remember)...
FOOTBALL:
QB
Kodi Burns (did little as a WR for Auburn)
Kiehl Frazier (did nothing at AU)
RB
Michael Dyer (had a very good FR season and then got into trouble and fell off)
Broderick Green (transferred to UA after only really playing in 1 game at USC)
Charles Stackhouse (was a good FB for Ole Miss and signed free agency w/NY Giants)
Altee Tenpenny (has barely seen the field at Bama)
Cedric Houston (had a pretty decent career at UT and played for the NY Jets)
DeAngelo Williams (went to Memphis and had a great college career and good NFL one too)
TE
Jake Byrne (went to Wisconsin and did nothing)
WR
Brett Smith (had a good career at UT)
Slick Shelley (flopped at UT...rumored there was shady recruiting)
Zac Brooks (at Clemson...not sure how much he has really played there)
OL
Bartley Webb (went to ND and disappeared)
Lee Ziemba (good career at AU...parents where AU alum)
Brett Helms (same story as Ziemba)
DL
Derek Johnson (went to Texas to never be heard from again)
Adrian Wilson (Went to Miami and disappeared)
Greg Jones (played sparingly at UT and then I think quit?)
Josh Frazier (at Bama...we'll see, but nothing yet)
Ryan Smith (oddly went to Rice...and did nothing)
LB
Matt Stoltz (went to LSU, was overrated. tried to transfer to UA, but his career ended early)
DB
Harold James (Signed w/Bama, went to JUCO, then to Ole Miss....did nothing)
RaShaun Fellows (Went to UT and played some early, but left and career ended)

We'll have to wait and see on KJ Hill

BASKETBALL:
Archie Goodwin (Had a good 1 year at KY...nothing great though, but got drafted)
James Anderson (did very well at OSU)
Jarrett Hart (didn't do anything at KSU)
Nicky Bradford (did OK, but nothing great at KU)
Quincy Lewis (had a good career at Minnesota and player in the NBA)

We'll have to wait and see on KA
 
Guys, this doesn't apply to basketball. Since 2003, we've landed every player we've offered in-state except for James Anderson, AJ Walton, Archie Goodwin and now, KeVaughn.

We know about James and Archie. They were high impact players, and went on to the pros. AJ was a multi-year starter, and while unspectacular stats, he would've started here multiple years.

Since 2003, we landed 13 of 17 of the players we offered in-state. Ronnie Brewer, Michael Washington, Sonny Weems, Ky Madden, Bobby Portis all made significant impact. TBD on Anton Beard and Trey Thompson.
So ......ummmmmmm, that pretty much kills the OP's point.
 
It's a very obvious observation from your post that I pointed out. You're predictable in that you argue everything that is in favor of Arkansas' program regardless of spot.

Get some thicker skin if you can't handle something so trivial. You want to be the contrarian with Mr Razorback and argue everything, don't bitch about someone recognizing the trend.
Yu make no sense. This discussion has zero to do with arkansas sports, it had to do with someone claiming that kids that leave the state are all failures. NOTHING to do with the Hogs. You had a knee jerk reaction thinking that somehow, me saying that all kids that leave the state aren't failures is a dig at Arkansas sports. You are out of control on your witch hunt my man.
 
I know this is a soap box item for you but do you really consider that "calling out"? Give me a break. You guys playing the victim card but incessantly pushing your bull shit around here every day is ridiculous.

I'm not a sunshine pumper. Call it like I see it but the ones (you two in particular) just are relentlessly horrible about only putting negative spin for the program. Every once in a while you may state a fact that resembles positivity but it's so rate I can't name a single instance.

You guys need to have some sort of balance. It's just unhealthy going completely one way or the other. You also know darn well that I don't attack other posters nor do I "call them out".
Again, how is me saying that kids that leave the state don't all fail a NEGATIVE SPIN against the Hogs program ? Tell me please. Razor Ag just pointed out that the basketball kids that leave the state all do well. Is he putting a negative spin on the program as well ? Do tell.
 
Yu make no sense. This discussion has zero to do with arkansas sports, it had to do with someone claiming that kids that leave the state are all failures. NOTHING to do with the Hogs. You had a knee jerk reaction thinking that somehow, me saying that all kids that leave the state aren't failures is a dig at Arkansas sports. You are out of control on your witch hunt my man.

Okay, we will obviously agree to disagree. Can't even see the point directly in front of you.
 
Here we go with the "if you leave you won't do well non sense"...guess what if they don't do well somewhere else they probably won't do well here either. This board makes intelligent people say some ignorant stuff...Joe Johnson would have been a great talent regardless where he went to school, Ronnie Brewer the same way...the guys who didn't have success, wouldn't have had success other places either. Of course there are exceptional circumstances, and situational factors, but assuming all things are even it's not going to matter. Talented players who are well coached perform at high levels.
Wrong. Altee Tenpenny would've had a good career here. By your logic, if KJ Hill doesn't get much PT at OSU and his career is so so, the same thing would've happened here at Arkansas?? Sorry bud, don't think so.
 
Wrong. Altee Tenpenny would've had a good career here. By your logic, if KJ Hill doesn't get much PT at OSU and his career is so so, the same thing would've happened here at Arkansas?? Sorry bud, don't think so.
Not trying to argue with you, but what besides speculation makes you think AT would have had a good career here? Is it possible that he just wasn't good enough to get playing time? Is it possible that while he was rated a 4* that he really wasn't a 4* talent? Sometimes *s do bust. After he was given his release he had a condition that he couldn't go to a SEC team I'm sure....so where are all of the other p5 offers for such an obvious talent?

Would he have been a star here because of our lack of talent? If so, why would he have had great success going head to head against competition he wasn't good enough to compete with when he wasn't getting playing time?

I'm honestly not trying to be a smartass, but I'm not to going just assume or concede that the kid would have been great here had he picked us over Bama anymore than I assume that he sucks just because he went to Bama and it didn't work out.
 
Not trying to argue with you, but what besides speculation makes you think AT would have had a good career here? Is it possible that he just wasn't good enough to get playing time? Is it possible that while he was rated a 4* that he really wasn't a 4* talent? Sometimes *s do bust. After he was given his release he had a condition that he couldn't go to a SEC team I'm sure....so where are all of the other p5 offers for such an obvious talent?

Would he have been a star here because of our lack of talent? If so, why would he have had great success going head to head against competition he wasn't good enough to compete with when he wasn't getting playing time?

I'm honestly not trying to be a smartass, but I'm not to going just assume or concede that the kid would have been great here had he picked us over Bama anymore than I assume that he sucks just because he went to Bama and it didn't work out.
To be fair, I said GOOD. I didn't say great.
 
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Every year we have 1 or 2 top kids leave the state in basketball and/or football and every time they do we found out later just how lucky we were that they left or we never hear much out of them again. So, why are we so upset now? Both Hill and Allen will likely be added to the list of unfortunate kids who end up M.I.A. in the college sports world after all of this.

By the grace of God, we have prayed against hatred, and people whom wish our good, loving, and humble kids bad experiences in their lives. These kids have done no harm to anyone on this board or in this state. Yes, they both decided not to be Razorbacks, and it's ok for fans to be upset about that. But going out of the way to hurt or wish bad on any human being - much less a kid, because of a footbal or basketball is just wrong. If the Razorbacks decided not to offer a kid that really wanted to be a hog, most..if not all fans would just trust that the coach decided that that kid wasn't a fit for the program. So I just don't understand how any fan that's a grown adult, wouldn't understand a kid making a choice he feels is best for him. The Univesity of Arkansas makes choices that are best for the U of A. As long as I have been a hog fan, I have never ever on any website or blog, down a kid, because he chose a school other than Arkansas to attend. But hey, this is a new generation, and love, kindness, and understanding others is by choice now, rather than natural occurrence, and that is a shame. I still watch all the Hog sports, and cheer them on..no one is ever going take that from me. I don't have to have 70,000 with me to remember Steve Atwater, almost win the Miami game if he could have just held on to that ball. Or when we were cheated by refs in the SMU game, on a bogus interferance call. Gary Anderson electrifying moves, plays. No..it's deeper than that. My brother and I making sure we didn't miss any BB or FB games, whether it was on TV or the radio. His name was Kenneth Peterson, and we have since lost him to heaven. My cousin Keith Peterson play BB for Hogs. His life did not turn out the way he probably planned, but that was by choice. My point is that, this wasn't the first, nor will it be the last a kid from this state decides that the U of A is not the choice for him. But there are more important things going on around us. Way more important then trying to find a way to hurt or tarnish kid for making a choice in his life that he feels is best for him. Both kids are great human beings, and will be great citizens. They may not be able to reach all their goals, but at least they will have a chance to try. With Gods blessing, they both will graduate from college, be successful, and have a beautiful family of their own. In the end, it wasn't that the U of A wasn't good enough- as some have said- but only that they feel they made the best choice for them, to take the next step in reaching their goals, in the future. That's all.
 
To be fair, I said GOOD. I didn't say great.
Agreed....I just hate getting caught up in absolutes when we speculate. Darius Winston was a 5* star that most would say didn't live up to the billing. Reeve Koehler was a 4*, but I don't think his career would be any better had he accepted a scholarship to Florida State instead of Arkansas. Anyways, not trying to argue semantics...was just a thought as it relates to "ifs and buts".
 
By the grace of God, we have prayed against hatred, and people whom wish our good, loving, and humble kids bad experiences in their lives. These kids have done no harm to anyone on this board or in this state. Yes, they both decided not to be Razorbacks, and it's ok for fans to be upset about that. But going out of the way to hurt or wish bad on any human being - much less a kid, because of a footbal or basketball is just wrong. If the Razorbacks decided not to offer a kid that really wanted to be a hog, most..if not all fans would just trust that the coach decided that that kid wasn't a fit for the program. So I just don't understand how any fan that's a grown adult, wouldn't understand a kid making a choice he feels is best for him. The Univesity of Arkansas makes choices that are best for the U of A. As long as I have been a hog fan, I have never ever on any website or blog, down a kid, because he chose a school other than Arkansas to attend. But hey, this is a new generation, and love, kindness, and understanding others is by choice now, rather than natural occurrence, and that is a shame. I still watch all the Hog sports, and cheer them on..no one is ever going take that from me. I don't have to have 70,000 with me to remember Steve Atwater, almost win the Miami game if he could have just held on to that ball. Or when we were cheated by refs in the SMU game, on a bogus interferance call. Gary Anderson electrifying moves, plays. No..it's deeper than that. My brother and I making sure we didn't miss any BB or FB games, whether it was on TV or the radio. His name was Kenneth Peterson, and we have since lost him to heaven. My cousin Keith Peterson play BB for Hogs. His life did not turn out the way he probably planned, but that was by choice. My point is that, this wasn't the first, nor will it be the last a kid from this state decides that the U of A is not the choice for him. But there are more important things going on around us. Way more important then trying to find a way to hurt or tarnish kid for making a choice in his life that he feels is best for him. Both kids are great human beings, and will be great citizens. They may not be able to reach all their goals, but at least they will have a chance to try. With Gods blessing, they both will graduate from college, be successful, and have a beautiful family of their own. In the end, it wasn't that the U of A wasn't good enough- as some have said- but only that they feel they made the best choice for them, to take the next step in reaching their goals, in the future. That's all.
Nothing brings out the ire in me like a poster bashing a recruit.
 
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