OT: One observation on Canada health care

[Hog6]

A few weeks back I indulged my wife in her wish to visit the Great Northwest. We spent a couple of cool days in Seattle and then took a ferry over to Victoria, BC. We did all the tourist stuff and had a great time. Whale watching, museums, gardens etc etc. And then I fell and broke my elbow. This is just meant as a small warning for anyone visiting Canada. I've been up there on fishing trips and other sightseeing trips over the years but this is the first time I needed medical care....and I have no idea if it is an indication of the overall system up there....
As we walked into the ER, we saw a chalkboard that said "Wait time to see a doctor is approximately 5-6 hours. I didn't know at the time that my elbow was actually fractured but I was in a heck of a lot of pain and neither of us figured the 5-6 hr deal would apply to us. Ha ha ha. Wrong.
I know it's football season and not many will read this but just be aware that, at least in this circumstance, it took over 7 hours to get the doc to put a cast on my arm. There were a whole lot of people there who were hurting so I waited as patiently as I could and didn't make a scene but dang, even people with severe concussions and other more painful conditions were in the queue and no amount of ing made a difference. There was a brief triage but the whole experience was nothing like what we expect in the USA. The doc was a very nice old guy and told us the normal wait was actually closer to 8 hrs on most nights. And oh yeah, he threw my wife some gloves and said, "here, put these on, you're helping with the cast"...and she helped slop on the cast.
It was certainly interesting, I can say that. Just be prepared I suppose.

 

[ml curly]

Also I have read that the ER doctors are only allowed to treat one item at a time. If you had sprained an ankle also you would have to get back into line to have it treated after your elbow was done. Also read that local doctors are only allowed to treat a certain amount of people a day. If you hit your limit by 11am you are through for the day. If there are sick people in the office they have to head to the ER.

 

[B0b L0blaw]

Wait times are high in american ER's as well. As for your broken elbow, it's hard to say what the wait time was due to. It could've been a lot of things. One of them being that while it's painful, a broken elbow isn't life threatening. Nobody should have to wait that long, but to act like that doesn't happen in the US is naive (no offense intended). Hope you feel better.

 

[Hog6]

Also I have read that the ER doctors are only allowed to treat one item at a time. If you had sprained an ankle also you would have to get back into line to have it treated after your elbow was done. Also read that local doctors are only allowed to treat a certain amount of people a day. If you hit your limit by 11am you are through for the day. If there are sick people in the office they have to head to the ER.

Not sure about all that but I sprained both hands really bad when I tried to break my fall and though I mentioned it, they didn't look at anything else other than the elbow I focused on when I came in. I was also bleeding from a big ol thing on my knee and the blood was dripping through my jeans the whole time but we were lucky I guess to get an xray and figure out the elbow. One other thing. Before we got into the ER we had to pay 1K up front on a credit card. Cash and carry.

 

[titanhawg]

Guys...warning...do not let this turn into a political thread. One political post...poof...gone like a fart in the wind.

 

[ml curly]

Do I smell a fart in breeze

 

[Hog6]

Wait times are high in american ER's as well. As for your broken elbow, it's hard to say what the wait time was due to. It could've been a lot of things. One of them being that while it's painful, a broken elbow isn't life threatening. Nobody should have to wait that long, but to act like that doesn't happen in the US is naive (no offense intended). Hope you feel better.

Maybe I'm naive (no offense taken) from your perspective but I can tell you that in the ER in my local hospital you don't wait long at all to get a private triage, have your vitals taken and then informed as to what is going on. I know this because in April I reported to the local ER and eventually had my gallbladder removed but the difference in care was night and day between here and there.
We saw an elderly lady brought in by an ambulance service and placed directly into the ER waiting room. We saw and heard the whole triage process, as we did many, many times that night, and she couldn't tell them what was wrong. Apparently she was in some kind of home and they'd overmedicated her with something. A very, very young nurse who weighed maybe 90 lbs eventually tried to walk this woman to one of the ER bays...everyone in the room could tell the woman wasn't going to make it. She fell like a sack of potatoes and hit her head on a chair. There was no immediate response from the medical staff....the nurse actually castigated the woman with "she's so drugged up she can't walk"...finally a male attendant came and helped the poor woman on to a gurney. This woman was not one of the drug or alcohol addicts we saw there that night...she was in PJs, from a home where she'd been given an incorrect dose of medicine. The nurse instructed the attendant to "let her sleep it off, once she wakes up we'll figure out what's going on with her". This was a bad, bad scene and I hope we don't have this kind of crap going on in the US. But again, as you said, maybe I'm a naive 61 year old guy.

 

[TJD63]

Maybe I'm naive (no offense taken) from your perspective but I can tell you that in the ER in my local hospital you don't wait long at all to get a private triage, have your vitals taken and then informed as to what is going on. I know this because in April I reported to the local ER and eventually had my gallbladder removed but the difference in care was night and day between here and there.
We saw an elderly lady brought in by an ambulance service and placed directly into the ER waiting room. We saw and heard the whole triage process, as we did many, many times that night, and she couldn't tell them what was wrong. Apparently she was in some kind of home and they'd overmedicated her with something. A very, very young nurse who weighed maybe 90 lbs eventually tried to walk this woman to one of the ER bays...everyone in the room could tell the woman wasn't going to make it. She fell like a sack of potatoes and hit her head on a chair. There was no immediate response from the medical staff....the nurse actually castigated the woman with "she's so drugged up she can't walk"...finally a male attendant came and helped the poor woman on to a gurney. This woman was not one of the drug or alcohol addicts we saw there that night...she was in PJs, from a home where she'd been given an incorrect dose of medicine. The nurse instructed the attendant to "let her sleep it off, once she wakes up we'll figure out what's going on with her". This was a bad, bad scene and I hope we don't have this kind of crap going on in the US. But again, as you said, maybe I'm a naive 61 year old guy.

Canadian health care is atrocious both in wait time and quality compared to the US, but hey it's free! That's what's important right?

 

[B0b L0blaw]

Maybe I'm naive (no offense taken) from your perspective but I can tell you that in the ER in my local hospital you don't wait long at all to get a private triage, have your vitals taken and then informed as to what is going on. I know this because in April I reported to the local ER and eventually had my gallbladder removed but the difference in care was night and day between here and there.
We saw an elderly lady brought in by an ambulance service and placed directly into the ER waiting room. We saw and heard the whole triage process, as we did many, many times that night, and she couldn't tell them what was wrong. Apparently she was in some kind of home and they'd overmedicated her with something. A very, very young nurse who weighed maybe 90 lbs eventually tried to walk this woman to one of the ER bays...everyone in the room could tell the woman wasn't going to make it. She fell like a sack of potatoes and hit her head on a chair. There was no immediate response from the medical staff....the nurse actually castigated the woman with "she's so drugged up she can't walk"...finally a male attendant came and helped the poor woman on to a gurney. This woman was not one of the drug or alcohol addicts we saw there that night...she was in PJs, from a home where she'd been given an incorrect dose of medicine. The nurse instructed the attendant to "let her sleep it off, once she wakes up we'll figure out what's going on with her". This was a bad, bad scene and I hope we don't have this kind of crap going on in the US. But again, as you said, maybe I'm a naive 61 year old guy.

I really didn't mean offense. The problem with wait times is they vary so widely from city to city and even by part of a city. It sounds like you were in a crappy ER. There are bad ER's everywhere and some very good ones. I think the longest I've ever waited in a US ER was about 4 1/2 to 5 hours (was at Baptist). My mom contracted the Swine Flu and was severely dehydrated. She just need some tamiful, fluids, and anti nausea meds. But b\c of acuity (sicker ones go first) and resources, we had to wait. The thing is that to see everyone quickly every day would make the business model of an ER untenable. It can only handle so much capacity. I've been to some bad hospitals and I'd urge you not to judge their whole medical system based off this one experience.

 

[B0b L0blaw]

Canadian health care is atrocious both in wait time and quality compared to the US, but hey it's free! That's what's important right?

That's not accurate. They, like most other western countries, get better outcomes for less money than we do here. Wait times are better here but overall our healthcare system isn't as good as the average American thinks it is. It's a very inefficient system.

 

[minnesotahog]

Wait, so you're telling me govt healthcare isn't better than private care? Who would have thunk! I thought the govt fix problems, not make them worse!

 

[B0b L0blaw]

Wait, so you're telling me govt healthcare isn't better than private care? Who would have thunk! I thought the govt fix problems, not make them worse!

Actually the single payer/hybrid systems you see in the western world have better outcomes at a lower cost than we do.

 

[minnesotahog]

Actually the single payer/hybrid systems you see in the western world have better outcomes at a lower cost than we do.

What's a single payer/hybrid system?

 

[B0b L0blaw]

What's a single payer/hybrid system?

Sorry for the confusion. So you have your single payers but you also have a hybrid of pure capitalist (private) and government (public). We actually have a hybrid b\c we have government insurance (Medicaid/Medicare). What I was referring to is what Germany and Austria have the majority covered by public care with some option for private care of some kind.

 

[minnesotahog]

Sorry for the confusion. So you have your single payers but you also have a hybrid of pure capitalist (private) and government (public). We actually have a hybrid b\c we have government insurance (Medicaid/Medicare). What I was referring to is what Germany and Austria have the majority covered by public care with some option for private care of some kind.

Sorry but whatever they're doing in europe, I want to do the opposite.

 

[B0b L0blaw]

Sorry but whatever they're doing in europe, I want to do the opposite.

They have better outcomes for less per person.

 

[RazorbackForever]

They have better outcomes for less per person.

98% of Stats are made up on the spot.

 

[hotspringsroadhog]

Not political. But the notion that you can insert a thick layer of bureaucracy (by either party) into a government that can't even deliver mail for less is astonishing. Then you dial in our obese, diabetic, CV propensity, and on and on...We do not have a homogeneous, healthy society like Japan or Scandinavia (where they are going broke btw). In Great Britain you can't get an MRI or cardiac Cath. Maybe if you wait 6 mos. Forget joint replacement. Talk to the docs who have escaped these systems. I do every day.

 

[B0b L0blaw]

Show some reliable studies if you are going to make such claims. Bernie is that you?

I'm going to assume you'll ignore the ones I provide, but here you go.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunr...-compared-to-10-other-countries/#6eb102df1b96

http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf See page 18

 

[Hog6]

I surely didn't mean to get involved in a political thing but I can understand how in this day and age it might turn into that. I should have figured that out before I posted. I can say that lots of the very friendly Canucks I met in the ER and afterwards who inquired about my experience seemed very sensitive to our observations on their care. The all seemed to be very, very practical in a word to describe their expectations. My one experience of course can't be construed to be much more than an outlier without more of a sample size. But given the comments from the people we talked to, including the doctor, this was not an aberration, at least for this hospital and this small city. One interesting thing was, once I got the cast on the doctor asked me what drug prescription I wanted..."we have a full array of drugs available" was his comment. I took one of the tylenol three things he gave me but I've been existing since then on lots of Advil. It turns out that casts on an elbow is not a good thing for very long as the joint gets kind of locked up after a while. Love Canada BTW, just not that ER experience in Victoria.
One other memory. We obviously chatted for hours (my wife did, I was groaning) with others in the ER...many of them talked about how long they had to wait for procedures....six months to a year for a hernia operation in one case I remember. MRI's are, according to our new good friends in the ER, not available except in rare instances.

 

[B0b L0blaw]

Not political. But the notion that you can insert a thick layer of bureaucracy (by either party) into a government that can't even deliver mail for less is astonishing. Then you dial in our obese, diabetic, CV propensity, and on and on...We do not have a homogeneous, healthy society like Japan or Scandinavia (where they are going broke btw). In Great Britain you can't get an MRI or cardiac Cath. Maybe if you wait 6 mos. Forget joint replacement. Talk to the docs who have escaped these systems. I do every day.

Despite the annoyances of some USPS workers, the USPS is an efficient operation that does it's job very effectively. People bring up the fact that it's bleeding money but that's on Congress, not the USPS. Part of the reason why our system isn't as good as the rest of the world's is due in part to how obese and unhealthy our lifestyles are these days. But that doesn't factor in how inefficient and expensive our system is, and how fixable those issues are.

 

[B0b L0blaw]

I surely didn't mean to get involved in a political thing but I can understand how in this day and age it might turn into that. I should have figured that out before I posted. I can say that lots of the very friendly Canucks I met in the ER and afterwards who inquired about my experience seemed very sensitive to our observations on their care. The all seemed to be very, very practical in a word to describe their expectations. My one experience of course can't be construed to be much more than an outlier without more of a sample size. But given the comments from the people we talked to, including the doctor, this was not an aberration, at least for this hospital and this small city. One interesting thing was, once I got the cast on the doctor asked me what drug prescription I wanted..."we have a full array of drugs available" was his comment. I took one of the tylenol three things he gave me but I've been existing since then on lots of Advil. It turns out that casts on an elbow is not a good thing for very long as the joint gets kind of locked up after a while. Love Canada BTW, just not that ER experience in Victoria.

I think the issue might be the quality of the facility you went to. I say this b\c in our system, if you go to a smaller/community hospital you're more likely to get poorer care. To liken it to a sports analogy, don't get treated by what's like a A or AA MD/RN when you can go to the bigs (major metro hospitals).

 

[RazorbackForever]

I think the issue might be the quality of the facility you went to. I say this b\c in our system, if you go to a smaller/community hospital you're more likely to get poorer care. To liken it to a sports analogy, don't get treated by what's like a A or AA MD/RN when you can go to the bigs (major metro hospitals).

That is absolutely not true. I can say, unequivocally that there are plenty of great doctors that are in rural/semi-rural areas. In the US, it totally depends. Plenty of poor doctors are employed by major hospitals in big cities.

 

[afc641]

My wife and I waited in the ER here in Arkansas over 13 hours one day/night. She had the flu while 3 months pregnant. Hadn't been to the ob dr at that point so had to go that route. Waited 3 hrs to get in a room and another 10 hrs to see a dr. About 4 hours in the room I went and begged a nurse to check my wife's vitals and temp. Was about 2 more hrs before that finally happened. Turned out my wife was a plus 4 dehydrated from being so sick. Don't ask me what plus 4 means but they was in a huge rush to push fluids when they finally came in.

 

[B0b L0blaw]

That is absolutely not true. I can say, unequivocally that there are plenty of great doctors that are in rural/semi-rural areas. In the US, it totally depends. Plenty of poor doctors are employed by major hospitals in big cities.

I'm not saying you can't be a rural doctor or RN and be a good on at that. What I'm saying is you're more likely to get better care in a larger hospital than a smaller, more rural one. I say this b\c in larger, more urban areas, your MD's and RN's see more and have experienced more. There's a reason why anytime someone is even remotely sick, they get sent to a larger hospital who has the experience and resources to care for that patient.

 

[Hog6]

I think the issue might be the quality of the facility you went to. I say this b\c in our system, if you go to a smaller/community hospital you're more likely to get poorer care. To liken it to a sports analogy, don't get treated by what's like a A or AA MD/RN when you can go to the bigs (major metro hospitals).

It was actually not a small place...not sure of their numbers and stuff but it was at the Royal Jubilee Hospital in Victoria, which is the capitol of British Columbia. The thing is it just felt much different. Not a professional opinion at all for sure.

 

[minnesotahog]

They have better outcomes for less per person.

I'm pretty sure their numbers are controlled by and done by the govt, meaning they can give you whatever answer you want. Minnesota is home to probably the best hospital in the world. I hear about the elite from all over the world coming here to the Mayo. Never heard Americans going to Europe to get care.

 

[B0b L0blaw]

It was actually not a small place...not sure of their numbers and stuff but it was at the Royal Jubilee Hospital in Victoria, which is the capitol of British Columbia. The thing is it just felt much different. Not a professional opinion at all for sure.

Hmm, stand corrected. It's a 500 bed hospital. That's a very good sized facility. Sorry you have a bad experience there. How's the elbow?

 

[GoHogs3]

All I can tell you if HC wins it is coming to an ER close to you.

 

[B0b L0blaw]

I'm pretty sure their numbers are controlled by and done by the govt, meaning they can give you whatever answer you want. Minnesota is home to probably the best hospital in the world. I hear about the elite from all over the world coming here to the Mayo. Never heard Americans going to Europe to get care.

It's stats and facts, whether you choose to believe them is on you. Mayo is an amazing facility. I've worked at 2 of the top 20 (by US News) in the US just this past year. Saying we're not the best doesn't mean we don't have good facilities or MD's or RN's, etc. What it means as a whole, we spend more than any other country for worse outcomes. That is statistical fact.

 

[Hog6]

Hmm, stand corrected. It's a 500 bed hospital. That's a very good sized facility. Sorry you have a bad experience there. How's the elbow?

Hey, thanks for asking!!! My wife thinks I'm goofing off but it still hurts quite a bit depending on which way I try to turn it. It really sucks to get old!!!
I googled the hospital and found this little thread of comments...very unscientific for sure.
https://www.google.ca/#q=Royal+Jubi...l&lrd=0x548f746e80c533cb:0xd6ddacda0df176b9,1

 

[minnesotahog]

It's stats and facts, whether you choose to believe them is on you. Mayo is an amazing facility. I've worked at 2 of the top 20 (by US News) in the US just this past year. Saying we're not the best doesn't mean we don't have good facilities or MD's or RN's, etc. What it means as a whole, we spend more than any other country for worse outcomes. That is statistical fact.

You keep saying worse outcomes. Define worse outcomes? I thought we were the cutting edge as far as research and development. And Don't we have the best doctors in the world? Ben Carson wasn't educated in Europe.

 

[B0b L0blaw]

You keep saying worse outcomes. Define worse outcomes? I thought we were the cutting edge as far as research and development. And Don't we have the best doctors in the world? Ben Carson wasn't educated in Europe.

So we live shorter, more unhealthy lives. We have higher incidents of post op infection (as an example, not saying we do), etc. Some of that is due to our diets and sedentary lifestyles. We do things very inefficiently and at way to high a price.

 

[Hog6]

For anyone left in this Grim Bottom forum, here are some docs talking about the status of health care in British Columbia....some of the stories they are telling are pretty familiar after my night in the ER.
http://www.bcemergencycare.com/why-this-matters/doctors-tell-real-life-er-stories-tell-us-yours/