Calling it now....

[wally*5]

No, I don't want this to turn into a bashing or anything like that.. I seriously want to talk religion.

Here is a good article that explains this process.

This part of Christianity has always frustrated me but the Lord ways are higher than ours. God is filled with grace and is not bounded by time so when a person surrenders his or her life right before physical earth death doesn't mean God sees that time. He sees a heart surrendered to Him.

 

[Treeclimber2]

Let's say I'm an , I know it's a stretch, but bear with me. I drink, cuss, womnize, never go to church, constantly deny God, have 10 kids, never see them, I rob I steal and I've beat the shit out of folks for no reason etc. On my death bed I accept Jesus as my personal savior, I go to Heaven, right?
A doctor in India who has never heard or even been in touch with somebody that can teach him Christianity, lives his life with one wife, his two great kids, never hits her, cheats on her and does everything he can in the most morally correct person he can be. But yet somehow he burns in hell. Please give me a plausible explanation for that.

I don't know if you can rape and pillage all your life, then try to save your ass on your death bed. God knows what's in your heart, so I guess if it was a true conviction, he would forgive.
If you read the Bible, God had a bit of a meanstreak too, if you jacked around with the wrong folks.
Now, the second guy you described, lived God in his life, so why would you think he would burn in hell? Cause he wouldn't.
I'd rather go through life believing in God, and find out I was wrong, rather than go through life NOT believing in God, and find out they were right...

 

[hogfever]

No, I don't want this to turn into a bashing or anything like that.. I seriously want to talk religion.

Mr. Razorback, I am not a frequent poster on here but your seriousness about this subject has prompted me to post. Don't get me wrong, I am no expert but I do know Jesus Christ as my Savior and have an assurance of where I am going when I leave this world. I became a Christian, not because of any good deeds I may have done but because the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sinfulness and my sinful nature which all men are born with because of the sin of Adam and Eve. Your asking about what it means and takes to be a Christian is an indication that the Holy Spirit is convicting you and revealing to you that something is missing in your life. That, to me, is a good thing because we cannot do anything within ourselves to become a Christian other than yield to this convicting power and placing our faith in Jesus Christ. By that I mean we are believing that Jesus is the Son of God, he died on the cross for our sins and that he rose from the grave. You see, faith is believing in someone or something that we cannot see, feel or use any of other senses. It's just a trust and belief that someone has taken the punishment for something that we deserved. Jesus Christ did that. There is no other way to be reconciled to God except through his Son that he gave to us for that purpose. We must ask for forgiveness for our sins and sinful nature and accept that gift by placing our faith in Jesus. Prayer is a part of that process. Sure good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. Just remember that God is control of it all because he uses things like that to glorify him. I presently am undergoing treatment for lymphoma. When I was first diagnosed I could not believe it. I teach a men's Sunday School class, I have lead music in churches, I have helped the needy of our community, I have helped young people with crises in their lives and several other things. How could God allow such a thing as cancer to enter my life? But, I realize that it is to reveal his glory. I have lots of people praying for me. I don't know whether God is going to heal me or not, but I will not let it hinder or affect my love for him and I live one day at a time. God is in control and he will receive the glory one way or the other. If he chooses to let me suffer and die from this then that is his call and he will receive the honor and glory. If not, then he will certainly receive the glory. Sorry for the length of this but I just felt compelled to share it with you. Will be praying for you and hope this helps. Please understand that I am not intending for this to sound like a pious discourse. I realize that I am still a sinner because I still sin everyday but I do know that my sins are forgiven. I am a saved sinner by the grace of God.

 

[Mr.Razorback]

Mr. Razorback, I am not a frequent poster on here but your seriousness about this subject has prompted me to post. Don't get me wrong, I am no expert but I do know Jesus Christ as my Savior and have an assurance of where I am going when I leave this world. I became a Christian, not because of any good deeds I may have done but because the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sinfulness and my sinful nature which all men are born with because of the sin of Adam and Eve. Your asking about what it means and takes to be a Christian is an indication that the Holy Spirit is convicting you and revealing to you that something is missing in your life. That, to me, is a good thing because we cannot do anything within ourselves to become a Christian other than yield to this convicting power and placing our faith in Jesus Christ. By that I mean we are believing that Jesus is the Son of God, he died on the cross for our sins and that he rose from the grave. You see, faith is believing in someone or something that we cannot see, feel or use any of other senses. It's just a trust and belief that someone has taken the punishment for something that we deserved. Jesus Christ did that. There is no other way to be reconciled to God except through his Son that he gave to us for that purpose. We must ask for forgiveness for our sins and sinful nature and accept that gift by placing our faith in Jesus. Prayer is a part of that process. Sure good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. Just remember that God is control of it all because he uses things like that to glorify him. I presently am undergoing treatment for lymphoma. When I was first diagnosed I could not believe it. I teach a men's Sunday School class, I have lead music in churches, I have helped the needy of our community, I have helped young people with crises in their lives and several other things. How could God allow such a thing as cancer to enter my life? But, I realize that it is to reveal his glory. I have lots of people praying for me. I don't know whether God is going to heal me or not, but I will not let it hinder or affect my love for him and I live one day at a time. God is in control and he will receive the glory one way or the other. If he chooses to let me suffer and die from this then that is his call and he will receive the honor and glory. If not, then he will certainly receive the glory. Sorry for the length of this but I just felt compelled to share it with you. Will be praying for you and hope this helps. Please understand that I am not intending for this to sound like a pious discourse. I realize that I am still a sinner because I still sin everyday but I do know that my sins are forgiven. I am a saved sinner by the grace of God.

I am deeply sorry for the health issues and I truly hope it gets better, and please post more often.

 

[Mr.Razorback]

I don't know if you can rape and pillage all your life, then try to save your ass on your death bed. God knows what's in your heart, so I guess if it was a true conviction, he would forgive.
If you read the Bible, God had a bit of a meanstreak too, if you jacked around with the wrong folks.
Now, the second guy you described, lived God in his life, so why would you think he would burn in hell? Cause he wouldn't.
I'd rather go through life believing in God, and find out I was wrong, rather than go through life NOT believing in God, and find out they were right...

See that last line is so cliche "well I'd better go ahead and believe, 'cause if I don't..." Doesn't the Bible CLEARLY state that if you don't follow God, you'll burn in hell? Then, yes, the doctor, what has lived a great life, will not be in Heaven and burn in hell. That's your bible saying that and you can't pick and chose what part of the Bible you want to believe and follow. Let me ask you this. Where did God come from?

 

[joerain]

I don't know if you can rape and pillage all your life, then try to save your ass on your death bed. God knows what's in your heart, so I guess if it was a true conviction, he would forgive.
If you read the Bible, God had a bit of a meanstreak too, if you jacked around with the wrong folks.
Now, the second guy you described, lived God in his life, so why would you think he would burn in hell? Cause he wouldn't.
I'd rather go through life believing in God, and find out I was wrong, rather than go through life NOT believing in God, and find out they were right...

LOL @ "bit of a mean streak". How many babies did he kill or order to be killed because he didn't like how things were going? But wait, he's all knowing so he knew all this was going to happen and then got really pissed off when it did. Can't make this stuff up...well, actually you can.

On the Pascal's Wager comment (covering your ass in case there is a God), this is the same reason my 9 year old daughter still kind of believes in Santa Claus. The fear of a consequence (not getting presents) outweighs all logic. She can talk herself into a guy flying around the world on a sleigh even though she knows it's a silly, illogical concept because what if it's true?

Mortality sucks and the fear of it is powerful. So powerful that for thousands of years it has caused otherwise normal and intelligent humans to set aside all logic and create mythical alternatives that provide comfort, hope and make it easier to deal with loss. I wish it were true, I really do. But just like my daughter's Santa Claus, your God was created by man.

 

[Treeclimber2]

LOL @ "bit of a mean streak". How many babies did he kill or order to be killed because he didn't like how things were going? But wait, he's all knowing so he knew all this was going to happen and then got really pissed off when it did. Can't make this stuff up...well, actually you can.

On the Pascal's Wager comment (covering your ass in case there is a God), this is the same reason my 9 year old daughter still kind of believes in Santa Claus. The fear of a consequence (not getting presents) outweighs all logic. She can talk herself into a guy flying around the world on a sleigh even though she knows it's a silly, illogical concept because what if it's true?

Mortality sucks and the fear of it is powerful. So powerful that for thousands of years it has caused otherwise normal and intelligent humans to set aside all logic and create mythical alternatives that provide comfort, hope and make it easier to deal with loss. I wish it were true, I really do. But just like my daughter's Santa Claus, your God was created by man.

Covering your ass huh? You need to read that part a little more carefully, and study the actual meaning of it... I believe man attempted to decifer the scrolls from which the bible came, as it was written in Aramaic. Only Jesus and his disciples knew the language, so I don't take everything the bible says, and hold on to it, as if it is the only fact... But I'd rather live my life as if there is a God, because that's gonna yield a better life for myself and the people around me.
I don't go to church, but I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, there's a power out there that is running this show.

 

[Treeclimber2]

See that last line is so cliche "well I'd better go ahead and believe, 'cause if I don't..." Doesn't the Bible CLEARLY state that if you don't follow God, you'll burn in hell? Then, yes, the doctor, what has lived a great life, will not be in Heaven and burn in hell. That's your bible saying that and you can't pick and chose what part of the Bible you want to believe and follow. Let me ask you this. Where did God come from?

See, that's not what that means AT ALL. You and that other DB couldn't be further from the meaning of that comment

 

[joerain]

Covering your ass huh? You need to read that part a little more carefully, and study the actual meaning of it... I believe man attempted to decifer the scrolls from which the bible came, as it was written in Aramaic. Only Jesus and his disciples knew the language, so I don't take everything the bible says, and hold on to it, as if it is the only fact... But I'd rather live my life as if there is a God, because that's gonna yield a better life for myself and the people around me.
I don't go to church, but I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, there's a power out there that is running this show.

 

[joerain]

Covering your ass huh? You need to read that part a little more carefully, and study the actual meaning of it... I believe man attempted to decifer the scrolls from which the bible came, as it was written in Aramaic. Only Jesus and his disciples knew the language, so I don't take everything the bible says, and hold on to it, as if it is the only fact... But I'd rather live my life as if there is a God, because that's gonna yield a better life for myself and the people around me.
I don't go to church, but I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, there's a power out there that is running this show.

Agree - there could absolutely be a power running the show. But I don't buy the Judeo-Christian idea of a God that is actively involved in day-to-day lives, providing guidiance, judging, driecting decisions, etc..

There's too much meaningless suffering in the world for that to be the case. A loving God wouldn't allow 1 Million Children a year to die of Malaria. An all-powerful God would be able to overcome "evil forces" in the world to prevent bad things like that from happening. An all-knowing God would have better methods for teaching life lessons than having someone watch their baby die. I get that it provides people great comfort to think that things happen for a reason, but things just happen.

People praise God for a beautiful day. But when a tornado detroys lives and property, that was just nature. Either he is in charge or he's not. If he is, then he sure does let a lot of messed up stuff happen to the people he supposedly loves.

 

[Treeclimber2]

Agree - there could absolutely be a power running the show. But I don't buy the Judeo-Christian idea of a God that is actively involved in day-to-day lives, providing guidiance, judging, driecting decisions, etc..

There's too much meaningless suffering in the world for that to be the case. A loving God wouldn't allow 1 Million Children a year to die of Malaria. An all-powerful God would be able to overcome "evil forces" in the world to prevent bad things like that from happening. An all-knowing God would have better methods for teaching life lessons than having someone watch their baby die. I get that it provides people great comfort to think that things happen for a reason, but things just happen.

People praise God for a beautiful day. But when a tornado detroys lives and property, that was just nature. Either he is in charge or he's not. If he is, then he sure does let a lot of messed up stuff happen to the people he supposedly loves.

Well, if I'm right and you're wrong, it's gonna suck for you. What do you think is gonna happen, when you die? Nothing? Just eternal nothingness?

 

[joerain]

Well, if I'm right and you're wrong, it's gonna suck for you. What do you think is gonna happen, when you die? Nothing? Just eternal nothingness?

Yes. Eternal nothingness.

 

[pokerpig]

Would Jesus like that America has allowed 1% of the population to have 50% of all wealth? Jesus spoke about helping poor people in the Bible over 300 specific times yet we glorify that top 1% and vilify the bottom 1%.
Seems like if Jesus came back he would be a socialist, yet all Christians seem to be republicans who do their best to help rich people get richer and want to cut most programs that help poor people.

So Jesus didn't mean it when he said teach a man to fish and he will feed himself every day? What he really meant, I guess, was you go down to the river every day and catch the guys fish for him, then you clean it for him, cook it for him, and feed it to him. Then you just continue to feed and care for him from cradle to grave, I mean he's a victim of some phobia or other, so it's not really his fault that he never learned to fish, or that he keeps having kids he can't clothe or feed, and if you don't think it's your job to support him and his, then you must be some kind of racist. Shame on you. Of course you should HELP those who are less fortunate than you, but only if THEY help themselves.

 

[ltdoc]

Who said a word about race? Why would racism enter this at all considering poor people are all colors?

No one said you should have to care for every person but I can assure you Jesus would be disgusted at how we glorify wealthy people and do our best to create a government that will continue to funnel money to them while doing whatever possible to stop social programs. Think of Jesus destroying the temple due to the evil that greed and money bring and then think of what he would think of Wall St. he would much prefer Skid Row to Wall St, regardless of how the homeless ended up in their situation.