OT Disney has a problem: 2 year old apparently eaten by Alligator in front of visitors at Disney Hotel

[dmjinc71]

At a Housing Association? No. At a Hotel? Definately yes.

In this case, Disney F'd-up. They neither removed gators nor even posted signs when international visitors, ignorant of risk, were visiting their business.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ests-about-alligators/?utm_term=.d75cbe3549ad

Certainly there will be plenty of lawyers positing the same opinions. I found this - ironically, one of the lawyers they quote is the same guy who is representing the family of the boy who got bit by a snake. He seems to make his living suing theme parks.

My guess is they'll settle for PR purposes. I still tend to agree more with the academics and law enforcement officers in the story - particularly this:

“What this comes down to is the fact that as much as we might like to — and especially for our children — we cannot totally remove risk from life…. Something like this is likely no one’s fault…. This is bad luck, unfortunate circumstances.”

 

[ghparish]

Wrong. Actually, this is the second attack on a child at the same beach. The last one was 1986: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1986-10-12/news/0260190168_1_hitt-alligator-fort-wilderness.

And yes, you need a sign warning of alligators in the pond. They are at a Disney resort. As such, there is a presumptive level of safety due to Disney's own marketing for families to enjoy a fun and safe environment. While I would never swim in ANY Florida pond or lake, I would assume that Disney would locate and remove gators from their park as a basic safety measure since small children are everywhere and you market to that clientele.

"No swimming" signage is not adequate. If there are gators in a Disney resort pond, they had better put up a sign stating such. It isn't enough to keep the kids out of the water. They need to stay away from the shoreline as well. Simply picking-up a seashell near the water's edge can be deadly for a small child.

I agree. We stayed at this resort years ago. We noted the no swimming signs which we thought at the time was for other reasons. The possibility of gators never occured to us because we were in Disney World. We did not swim or even wade in the water but we did go right to the edge. If they had put up signs alerting us to gators in the lake, we would not gone anywhere near the edge of the water. As far as I am concerned this was a major lapse in judgement on Disney's part. I will not be surprised to see proper signs warning guests of the potential danger in the near future.

 

[dmjinc71]

I agree. We stayed at this resort years ago. We noted the no swimming signs which we thought at the time was for other reasons. The possibility of gators never occured to us because we were in Disney World. We did not swim or even wade in the water but we did go right to the edge. If they had put up signs alerting us to gators in the lake, we would not gone anywhere near the edge of the water. As far as I am concerned this was a major lapse in judgement on Disney's part. I will not be surprised to see proper signs warning guests of the potential danger in the near future.

Oh I'm sure there will be signs now. Whether or not it was a major lapse - well, I suspect there will be the civil court opinion, and then there will be the common sense opinion. This is the first alligator attack at that lagoon ever, and only the 2nd in the 45 year history of the park. Meanwhile you have a significantly greater risk of dying on a Disney bus or monorail. Legally speaking, someone convinced a judge that McDonalds was liable when they put a cup of hot coffee between their legs and it spilled on them and burned. So now all the cups have warnings that the hot coffee you just ordered is actually hot. So it won't be a stretch to convince a judge they should have had a sign. May as well put up Zika virus signs now while you have the crews out.

I am a little jaded about the sign thing. I am overly cautious around water. I found this in the article from the WashPo above, which probably explains why I don't depend on signs to keep me safe.

"Floridians are extremely wary of alligators, for the most part. The danger is so ingrained in the general public that many small bodies of water lack posted warnings. “Early morning or late evening, you don’t go messing around on a shoreline with vegetation because of alligators,” Krysko said."

 

[Penthouse65]

Re-occurring problem ?? The park has been there 45 years and no one has ever been eaten by a gator but you call it a RE-OCCURING (horrible grammar BTW, it is RECURRING)

Good Lord do you need to be spoon fed everything ? Do you need signs on the beach saying, beware, there are sharks that swim in the ocean ? At some point common sense has to come into play here. You are in Florida. There are signs everywhere saying to stay out of the water. Why not just STAY OUT OF THE WATER ? regardless of whether there is a sign telling you what is in the water.

I would seek a psych evaluation if I were you.....

 

[ermackey]

Legally speaking, someone convinced a judge that McDonalds was liable when they put a cup of hot coffee between their legs and it spilled on them and burned. So now all the cups have warnings that the hot coffee you just ordered is actually hot. So it won't be a stretch to convince a judge they should have had a sign.

Wrong. You are referring to Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants.

The label on the cups has nothing to do with that lawsuit. But it does have to do with the cup-holders they give out now.

The facts of the case is that a 79 year old lady was given coffee that spilled in her lap while she was attempting to add creamer. Sounds silly, right? Not when you consider:

• The resulting injuries included 3rd degree burns on her thigh and groin, including her clitoris.
• The coffee was so hot that it melted her nylon sweat pants into her skin, requiring surgery and skin graphs to repair.
• New Mexico (the state of the event) cited this McDonalds location twice prior to the accident for having coffee too hot and out of compliance with state health code (willful negligence),
• McDonald’s operations manual required the franchisee to hold its coffee at 180 to 190 degrees Fahrenheit despite the New Mexico Health Code.
• McDonald’s admitted it had known about the risk of serious burns from its scalding hot coffee for more than 10 years. The risk had repeatedly been brought to its attention through numerous other claims and suits.
• An expert witness for the company testified that the number of burns was insignificant compared to the billions of cups of coffee the company served each year.
• McDonald’s quality assurance manager testified that McDonald’s coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured into Styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn the mouth and throat.
• McDonald’s admitted at trial that consumers were unaware of the extent of the risk of serious burns from spilled coffee served at McDonald’s then-required temperature.
• McDonald’s admitted it did not warn customers of the nature and extent of this risk and could offer no explanation as to why it did not.

Further consider why they awarded her $3mil.

• At first, she only asked for $27,000 to cover medical expenses. Mcdonalds decided to play hard ball.
• She literally burned her clitoris off due to the coffee McDonald's knew was too hot for human consumption.
• The jury awarded that in PUNITIVE damages to create a financial incentive for McDonalds to change their policy. And it worked.

Burn your clitoris or off and see how much money you need to be compensated for your loss. Especially if you find out McDonald's was willfully breaking the law despite knowing the consequences of public safety. Rack up the medical bills to rebuild what you can. Then come back here and tell us about how it was your responsibility and how sorry you are to McDonald's for the trouble you caused.

Also, fun fact, the judgement was reduced to about $500,000 later.

 

[dmjinc71]

Wrong. You are referring to Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants.

The label on the cups has nothing to do with that lawsuit. But it does have to do with the cup-holders they give out now.

The facts of the case is that a 79 year old lady was given coffee that spilled in her lap while she was attempting to add creamer. Sounds silly, right? Not when you consider:

• The resulting injuries included 3rd degree burns on her thigh and groin, including her clitoris.
• The coffee was so hot that it melted her nylon sweat pants into her skin, requiring surgery and skin graphs to repair.
• New Mexico (the state of the event) cited this McDonalds location twice prior to the accident for having coffee too hot and out of compliance with state health code (willful negligence),
• McDonald’s operations manual required the franchisee to hold its coffee at 180 to 190 degrees Fahrenheit despite the New Mexico Health Code.
• McDonald’s admitted it had known about the risk of serious burns from its scalding hot coffee for more than 10 years. The risk had repeatedly been brought to its attention through numerous other claims and suits.
• An expert witness for the company testified that the number of burns was insignificant compared to the billions of cups of coffee the company served each year.
• McDonald’s quality assurance manager testified that McDonald’s coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured into Styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn the mouth and throat.
• McDonald’s admitted at trial that consumers were unaware of the extent of the risk of serious burns from spilled coffee served at McDonald’s then-required temperature.
• McDonald’s admitted it did not warn customers of the nature and extent of this risk and could offer no explanation as to why it did not.

Further consider why they awarded her $3mil.

• At first, she only asked for $27,000 to cover medical expenses. Mcdonalds decided to play hard ball.
• She literally burned her clitoris off due to the coffee McDonald's knew was too hot for human consumption.
• The jury awarded that in PUNITIVE damages to create a financial incentive for McDonalds to change their policy. And it worked.

Burn your clitoris or off and see how much money you need to be compensated for your loss. Then come back here and tell us about how it was your responsibility and how sorry you are to McDonald's for the trouble you caused.

It won't happen, because I have too much sense to hold hot coffee in a styrofoam cup in my crotch.

And if the label on the cup was not a direct result, it's an interesting coincidence that the label showed up when that lawsuit hit.

It's an accident, and her injuries did sound absolutely awful. And by all accounts she was just a sweet little old lady who had an accident. The bottom line is: it's a bad idea to put a flimsy container of hot coffee between your legs, and even worse to pull the lid off like that. Coffee is brewed hot. i drink more tea than coffee, and the most delicate teas are brewed at 160; Oolong is brewed at 190. It's damned hot. If you come to my house, ask for a cup of tea, and then spill it in your crotch, it's not my fault that the tea was too hot.

I will agree with you that McDonald's, from a PR perspective, would have been wise to pay her medical bills and make it go away. I just wish people would stop looking for someone to blame (and sue) when an accident happens.

 

[dmjinc71]

Wrong. You are referring to Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants.

The label on the cups has nothing to do with that lawsuit. But it does have to do with the cup-holders they give out now.

The facts of the case is that a 79 year old lady was given coffee that spilled in her lap while she was attempting to add creamer. Sounds silly, right? Not when you consider:

• The resulting injuries included 3rd degree burns on her thigh and groin, including her clitoris.
• The coffee was so hot that it melted her nylon sweat pants into her skin, requiring surgery and skin graphs to repair.
• New Mexico (the state of the event) cited this McDonalds location twice prior to the accident for having coffee too hot and out of compliance with state health code (willful negligence),
• McDonald’s operations manual required the franchisee to hold its coffee at 180 to 190 degrees Fahrenheit despite the New Mexico Health Code.
• McDonald’s admitted it had known about the risk of serious burns from its scalding hot coffee for more than 10 years. The risk had repeatedly been brought to its attention through numerous other claims and suits.
• An expert witness for the company testified that the number of burns was insignificant compared to the billions of cups of coffee the company served each year.
• McDonald’s quality assurance manager testified that McDonald’s coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured into Styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn the mouth and throat.
• McDonald’s admitted at trial that consumers were unaware of the extent of the risk of serious burns from spilled coffee served at McDonald’s then-required temperature.
• McDonald’s admitted it did not warn customers of the nature and extent of this risk and could offer no explanation as to why it did not.

Further consider why they awarded her $3mil.

• At first, she only asked for $27,000 to cover medical expenses. Mcdonalds decided to play hard ball.
• She literally burned her clitoris off due to the coffee McDonald's knew was too hot for human consumption.
• The jury awarded that in PUNITIVE damages to create a financial incentive for McDonalds to change their policy. And it worked.

Burn your clitoris or off and see how much money you need to be compensated for your loss. Especially if you find out McDonald's was willfully breaking the law despite knowing the consequences of public safety. Rack up the medical bills to rebuild what you can. Then come back here and tell us about how it was your responsibility and how sorry you are to McDonald's for the trouble you caused.

Also, fun fact, the judgement was reduced to about $500,000 later.

And let me clarify, I don't think there is never a valid case for a personal injury lawsuit. If you went to a store and purchased a cream that was intended to be applied to the groin, and it caused burns, that's a valid lawsuit. Taking something that is supposed to be hot, accidentally spilling it on your skin, and suffering burns, is not. It's a matter of opinion of where each of us thinks the line of accountability should be drawn. I'm of the opinion that we should be more accountable for our own selves.

 

[ccfarmer2]

I either read or heard recently that Disney is aware of the alligator's and try to keep them at less than 4 feet. Really? How about ax them all.

 

[dmjinc71]

I either read or heard recently that Disney is aware of the alligator's and try to keep them at less than 4 feet. Really? How about ax them all.

I don't know about their policy, but in Florida most neighborhoods and golf courses have some kind of approach like that. You can't keep them out. DisneyWorld is huge. They get around. I've always been told they are pretty aggressive about pulling gators out. In all the times I've been there (>50), I've seen fewer gators on the side of a pond than in one single round of golf at most courses in Florida.

The course/neighborhood where I lived had one in every single retention pond. If they got too big, or if they ventured too far from their pond, they'd call in a trapper. The one behind my house was about 6 feet long and never caused a problem. We just never went within 5 or 6 feet of the water, and we didn't go in the backyard at all after dark.

 

[ccfarmer2]

I don't know about their policy, but in Florida most neighborhoods and golf courses have some kind of approach like that. You can't keep them out. DisneyWorld is huge. They get around. I've always been told they are pretty aggressive about pulling gators out. In all the times I've been there (>50), I've seen fewer gators on the side of a pond than in one single round of golf at most courses in Florida.

The course/neighborhood where I lived had one in every single retention pond. If they got too big, or if they ventured too far from their pond, they'd call in a trapper. The one behind my house was about 6 feet long and never caused a problem. We just never went within 5 or 6 feet of the water, and we didn't go in the backyard at all after dark.

Thanks so much for the more in depth view on this. Sounds like trying to get all the mosquitos out of Stuttgart.

 

[dmjinc71]

Thanks so much for the more in depth view on this. Sounds like trying to get all the mosquitos out of Stuttgart.

More like trying to get all the politicians out of Washington. They just slither back in under the cover of darkness

 

[ermackey]

It won't happen, because I have too much sense to hold hot coffee in a styrofoam cup in my crotch.

And if the label on the cup was not a direct result, it's an interesting coincidence that the label showed up when that lawsuit hit.

It's an accident, and her injuries did sound absolutely awful. And by all accounts she was just a sweet little old lady who had an accident. The bottom line is: it's a bad idea to put a flimsy container of hot coffee between your legs, and even worse to pull the lid off like that. Coffee is brewed hot. i drink more tea than coffee, and the most delicate teas are brewed at 160; Oolong is brewed at 190. It's damned hot. If you come to my house, ask for a cup of tea, and then spill it in your crotch, it's not my fault that the tea was too hot.

I will agree with you that McDonald's, from a PR perspective, would have been wise to pay her medical bills and make it go away. I just wish people would stop looking for someone to blame (and sue) when an accident happens.

Nevermind that, as cited, the New Mexico Health Department previously ordered them twice to decrease the temperature of the coffee due to state health code and McDonald's ignored the order? If ignoring state health code and having someone suffer injury is not a reason for substantial punitive damages, I would like to know where you believe the line should be.

 

[Master of Reality]

More like trying to get all the politicians out of Washington. They just slither back in under the cover of darkness

Disney contains over 40 square miles. It is the size of San Francisco. It is in the middle of the gator infested state of Florida. Good luck trying to keep Gators out. You can't keep them out of 27 acres, much less 27,000.

 

[dmjinc71]

Nevermind that, as cited, the New Mexico Health Department previously ordered them twice to decrease the temperature of the coffee due to state health code and McDonald's ignored the order? If ignoring state health code and having someone suffer injury is not a reason for substantial punitive damages, I would like to know where you believe the line should be.

And what is the penalty for disregarding an order from the New Mexico Health Department?

 

[ermackey]

And what is the penalty for disregarding an order from the New Mexico Health Department?

Hell if I know. But if you repeatedly break the law and someone gets hurt, it is hard to justify a lack responsibility for the injury.

 

[dmjinc71]

Hell if I know. But if you repeatedly break the law and someone gets hurt, it is hard to justify a lack responsibility for the injury.

My limited amount of google time hasn't yielded anything about New Mexico having a law on the maximum allowable temperature of coffee. Where did you read that part?

 

[ermackey]

My limited amount of google time hasn't yielded anything about New Mexico having a law on the maximum allowable temperature of coffee. Where did you read that part?

It is in the documentary about the case titled, "Hot Coffee."

http://www.hotcoffeethemovie.com/Default.asp

Also, I do not think that it is a law on coffee temperature. I think it is a regulation on food safety and that food cannot be so hot that it can cause serious burns. I think the limit is around 160 F

 

[Penthouse65]

Re-occurring problem ?? The park has been there 45 years and no one has ever been eaten by a gator but you call it a RE-OCCURING (horrible grammar BTW, it is RECURRING)

Good Lord do you need to be spoon fed everything ? Do you need signs on the beach saying, beware, there are sharks that swim in the ocean ? At some point common sense has to come into play here. You are in Florida. There are signs everywhere saying to stay out of the water. Why not just STAY OUT OF THE WATER ? regardless of whether there is a sign telling you what is in the water.

The mods get angry at personal attacks on other posters. So i will just say that there is stupidity in the air....like real unadulterated stupidity...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/1...-before-attack-reports-say.html?intcmp=hplnws

 

[ermackey]

The mods get angry at personal attacks on other posters. So i will just say that there is stupidity in the air....like real unadulterated stupidity...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/1...-before-attack-reports-say.html?intcmp=hplnws

Yep. They need to write that check now and publicly.

 

[Master of Reality]

The mods get angry at personal attacks on other posters. So i will just say that there is stupidity in the air....like real unadulterated stupidity...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/1...-before-attack-reports-say.html?intcmp=hplnws

oh look, a witty response from someone who spends his free time on TMB. Winner