Kuddos Jerry Jones

[Woodshed 1914]

I don't see the Confederate Flag the way you do. You fail to use your own logic. You say empathy can't be had because we haven't lived in each others shoes and then make a statement about how I should feel on a topic. My argument is founded in factual evidence and statistical support. Yours is emotion driven. You say you want "equality" and in the same argument tell me just who different we are and that i could never be you. Are you saying that I can't understand the plight of the black community simply because I'm white? If so this is yet just another way to separate from the collective. Your rhetoric that is founded in inequality will never gain you compassion or understanding let alone equal footing from those who arent just like you.

As for police Brutality and spcifically police Homicide it is accounted for in less than 1% of 1% in all police stops. So 1 in 1 million stops results in a tragedy. Wouldn't you want most aspects of our lives to have that success rate? Our people do not live in a vacuume and neither do our police operate in one. Plus they are people and that means a guarantee of failure or breakdown at some point.

Absolutely not, Brutality and death is not acceptably. PERIOD. However you are kidding yourself if you think our police force is going to be perfect. The factual numbers say they are damn near that mark though.

If ONE person dies due to police Brutality then that is one too man. And I could give a damn about the color of theft officer or the victim. My words are experience driven not emotionally driven. So the fact that you speak in terms of a "success rate" when we are talking about lives being taken proves how different your reality is from mine. Based on what you have revealed above. The chances anything fruitful coming from this conversation and slim to none. Keep posting spin and hyperbole from conservative blogs all you want. Hard core right winger right here. Good day sir.

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

If ONE person dies due to police Brutality then that is one too man. And I could give a damn about the color of theft officer or the victim. My words are experience driven not emotionally driven. So the fact that you speak in terms of a "success rate" when we are talking about lives being taken process how different your reality is from mine. Based on what you have revealed above. The chances anything fruitful coming from this conversation and slim to none. Keep posting spin and hyperbole from conservative blogs all you want. Good day sir.

Ahhhh, now we have the labels coming out when your argument fails. "Don't label me but I'm going to label you to make sure you don't label me"

I don't condone the Confederate flag nor will I denounce a piece of fabric. It's fabric. Why is it just fabric and not a symbol? Because the attempt of that nation failed and it does not exist. As a history lover I findon't it shameful that we would hide away the things we need never forget. People who use the Confederate Flag for racism are reprehensible. I never saw it that way. It was a tie to being proud of the dirt poor southern roots I came from. I can easily see the hatred you would have for it as well. That's called empathy and yes even though I'm white I have that same god given tool that every human does.

As for police homicide we will never have a civilized without police intervention. An unarmed police force leads to lawnessless. As I have said it is horrible for any life to be lost. I also understand that there will be lives lost due to the construction of armed policing. I UNDERSTAND it is do not CONDONE it. You paint with broad emotional brushes with noting to support your claims. Yet you accuse me of that very thing. Do you not see that the logic you are using is counterproductive to the goals you claim that you want to achieve?

 

[Woodshed 1914]

Look at the numbers for what they are Boss. It's one thing to adjust the numbers FOR the population but to theoretically adjust the population FOR the numbers is not the same thing. I honestly think it's kind of disingenuous. Blacks have been killed at disproportionate rates to white counterparts whether armed or unarmed. Whether as the suspect of a crime or found in commission of a crime.

According recent census data, there are about 160 million more caucasian people in America than blacks. Whites account for about 62 percent of the U.S. population but only about 49 percent of those who are killed by police officers. Blacks, yet, account for 24 percent of those fatally shot and killed by the police while being just 13 percent of the U.S. population. That means blacks are 2.5xs as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police.

Of all of the unarmed people shot and killed by police in 2015, 40 percent of them were black men, even though black men make up just 6 percent of the nation’s population. There is social injustice amongst a small number of police officers based on skin color. That is indisputable and it should be addressed.

Credit the Washington Post and several other outlets for the raw data.


You're a good man Boss I'm sure of it. I refuse to judge you or anyone because fundamental differences. But sometimes thing just are what they are.

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

Look at the numbers for what they are Boss. It's one thing to adjust the numbers FOR the population but to theoretically adjust the population FOR the numbers is not the same thing. I honestly think it's kind of disingenuous. Blacks have been killed at disproportionate rates to white counterparts whether armed or unarmed. Whether as the suspect of a crime or found in commission of a crime.

According recent census data, there are about 160 million more caucasian people in America than blacks. Whites account for about 62 percent of the U.S. population but only about 49 percent of those who are killed by police officers. Blacks, yet, account for 24 percent of those fatally shot and killed by the police while being just 13 percent of the U.S. population. That means blacks are 2.5xs as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police.

Of all of the unarmed people shot and killed by police in 2015, 40 percent of them were black men, even though black men make up just 6 percent of the nation’s population. There is social injustice amongst a small number of police officers based on skin color. That is indisputable and it should be addressed.

Credit the Washington Post and several other outlets for the raw data.


You're a good man Boss I'm sure of it. I refuse to judge you or anyone because fundamental differences. But sometimes thing just are what they are.

Now, the data doesn't stop there. Volume doesn't tell the whole story. If volume were the story there would be marches for White police homicide because it happens twice as much as it does to blacks. That's a fact. But Volume isn't the whole story. You make a great and valid point that blacks are killed well beyond their proportion to society. But you blatantly disregard the fact that blacks also commit the same vastly disproportionate number of crimes in volume to their population percentage. Which means they come into contact with the police AT LEAST (bias does exist due to the data and adds to this number) that same inflated ammount. How can you look at one and ignore the other? While also ignoring the fact that whites are killed at virtually the same rate as blacks by % of police stops and then determine that it is blacks that are targeted for death? All of those statistics fit seamlessly (as sad as that it) and you (and MILLIONS in our nation) draw a completely unsupported view by ignoring key parts of the data completely.

Why are poor black centers targeted for policing? Look at the crime data and you will see why. If crime were lowered in those areas exponentially then so would the need for policing to the same degree. So let's focus on the root cause of the crimes and eliminate what you say you hate. Or.... should we continue to blame, protest, and argue while nothing changes? Democrats have made an absolute living off of this the past 4 decades. It's time to shift the focus and fix the problems we ALL have.

Here is what also fits seemlessly. Broken families and poverty lead to crime. Education and jobs leads to empowerment. Color be damned. That's not a white or black thing. Just look at the Asian demographic. They are a brown skin minoroty race in our country yet they have the highest 2 parent family %, highest educational %, lowest crime %, and highest per family income of all demographics. Then comes the demographic of India decent also a high emphasis on families and education that lead to wealth, also a brown skinned minority. Whites fall in the middle of all American demographics not the top. Whites are the middle of the pack in families, education, wealth, and crime %. Whites have a wide diversity of all of these factors and thus are the median. I dont hear anyone claiming Asian or India privilege because that doesn't sell to the public and it doesn't lock up votes. Unfortunately in these stats the roles flip for African Americans. These arent just coincidence my friend.

There are good conservatives saying let's support families, support greater education through choice of a better school, less regulations to create more jobs, and all of that will yield less crime and poverty while building weath/limiting dependence..... GERATIONALLY for EVERYONE. Yet were called racists? Are you kidding me? I just can't wrap my head around that. Let's fix the problems every American faces and stop focusing on our differences.

 

[Hendrix Hog]

Things the Confederate Flag represents:

1. The biggest act of treason in the history of our country;
2. More American deaths than all other major wars combined;
3. Slavery;
4. A 0% winning percentage;
5. The History of items 1-4.

We get it - it's your/our "history" or "heritage", but it's the history of an awful, awful decision. Like, the worst decision in American history. And it was all made because rich white dudes wanted to own other people. Something that today we universally agree is despicable. I've never understand why people are so prideful of the Confederate Flag.

 

[admiral2480]

Blacks have been killed at disproportionate rates to white counterparts whether armed or unarmed. Whether as the suspect of a crime or found in commission of a crime.

This study by an African-American professor at Harvard is informative when it comes to police use of force and officer involved shootings.

An Empirical Analysis of Racial Differences in Police Use of Force

 

[MR_ARKANSAS]

Now, the data doesn't stop there. Volume doesn't tell the whole story. If volume were the story there would be marches for White police homicide because it happens twice as much as it does to blacks. That's a fact. But Volume isn't the whole story. You make a great and valid point that blacks are killed well beyond their proportion to society. But you blatantly disregard the fact that blacks also commit the same vastly disproportionate number of crimes in volume to their population percentage. Which means they come into contact with the police AT LEAST (bias does exist due to the data and adds to this number) that same inflated ammount. How can you look at one and ignore the other? While also ignoring the fact that whites are killed at virtually the same rate as blacks by % of police stops and then determine that it is blacks that are targeted for death? All of those statistics fit seamlessly (as sad as that it) and you (and MILLIONS in our nation) draw a completely unsupported view by ignoring key parts of the data completely.

Why are poor black centers targeted for policing? Look at the crime data and you will see why. If crime were lowered in those areas exponentially then so would the need for policing to the same degree. So let's focus on the root cause of the crimes and eliminate what you say you hate. Or.... should we continue to blame, protest, and argue while nothing changes? Democrats have made an absolute living off of this the past 4 decades. It's time to shift the focus and fix the problems we ALL have.

Here is what also fits seemlessly. Broken families and poverty lead to crime. Education and jobs leads to empowerment. Color be damned. That's not a white or black thing. Just look at the Asian demographic. They are a brown skin minoroty race in our country yet they have the highest 2 parent family %, highest educational %, lowest crime %, and highest per family income of all demographics. Then comes the demographic of India decent also a high emphasis on families and education that lead to wealth, also a brown skinned minority. Whites fall in the middle of all American demographics not the top. Whites are the middle of the pack in families, education, wealth, and crime %. Whites have a wide diversity of all of these factors and thus are the median. I dont hear anyone claiming Asian or India privilege because that doesn't sell to the public and it doesn't lock up votes. Unfortunately in these stats the roles flip for African Americans. These arent just coincidence my friend.

There are good conservatives saying let's support families, support greater education through choice of a better school, less regulations to create more jobs, and all of that will yield less crime and poverty while building weath/limiting dependence..... GERATIONALLY for EVERYONE. Yet were called racists? Are you kidding me? I just can't wrap my head around that. Let's fix the problems every American faces and stop focusing on our differences.

The popular argument is that they are targeted at a higher rate because of criminality but there is no statistical correlation between violent crime and who is killed by police officers. None whatsoever. There is no data supporting that argument. In fact there is data proving the opposite.

 

[MR_ARKANSAS]

This study by an African-American professor at Harvard is informative when it comes to police use of force and officer involved shootings.

An Empirical Analysis of Racial Differences in Police Use of Force

https://scatter.wordpress.com/2016/07/11/yes-there-is-racial-bias-in-police-shootings/

There are articles debunking some evidence of that "empircal analysis". So you agree with Fryer that there is absolutely no racial bias in police shootings? That would be mighty naive.

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

Things the Confederate Flag represents:

1. The biggest act of treason in the history of our country;
2. More American deaths than all other major wars combined;
3. Slavery;
4. A 0% winning percentage;
5. The History of items 1-4.

We get it - it's your/our "history" or "heritage", but it's the history of an awful, awful decision. Like, the worst decision in American history. And it was all made because rich white dudes wanted to own other people. Something that today we universally agree is despicable. I've never understand why people are so prideful of the Confederate Flag.

Everyone look at the shiny object in the corner.

You don't know your US history well if you think the Civil War was fought over slavery. Spin existed then as it does now. States rights were at the top of the list and yes slavery played a part. But we have to remember there were millions of northern slaves at that time as well. In fact there were riots in NY over loss of slavery.

Lincoln himself ran for president on the proposal that he had no desire to end slavery. During the war he said that he would see every slave back in chains if it meant the survival of the Union. The first emancipation proclamation was a battle field issue in Oklahoma that allowed those slaves to turn and fight. This was a huge success. Lincoln used this to his advantage by claiming black men were property and therefore could be seized. The 14th was passed in effort to cripple the Souths economy and ensure no future uprising. Evidence by 3/5 compromise. They didn't see blacks as men but as tools.

Of course to the victory goes the spoils as well as the ability to create your version of history.

All of that is sad and reprehensible. But it is our history. I have the knowledge of the facts of how it played out. It was about power not amoral high ground. Much like the vast majority of our history. But our founders in their self preserving wisdom unknowingly did the higher moral thing by saying all men are created equal even if they didn't mean it. Because it is true and that is what makes our nation great.

I'm proud to be from the south but I'm not a racist. I don't have a Confederate flag. I can see how some connect with it but I clearly see how some hate it. It's really isn't as simple as you make it out to be. But most people who fly a Confederate flag don't know the real history so it voids most of that.

Hell it isn't really even the Confederate flag. It's the battle flag. And most people don't know that either.

Howevwr none of what you or I posted changes the facts about the topic above. But it's a good distraction from them isn't it? So I dont think we need to destroy our hide our history when we're trying to make sure that we don't repeat it. But we also don't need to cling to it like a blanket from either side.

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

The popular argument is that they are targeted at a higher rate because of criminality but there is no statistical correlation between violent crime and who is killed by police officers. None whatsoever. There is no data supporting that argument. In fact there is data proving the opposite.

So we're going to ignore that interactions with police offers are higher in high crime areas to prove a point? If there are more interactions then there is greater opportunity for both positive and negative results.

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

https://scatter.wordpress.com/2016/07/11/yes-there-is-racial-bias-in-police-shootings/

There are articles debunking some evidence of that "empircal analysis". So you agree with Fryer that there is absolutely no racial bias in police shootings? That would be mighty naive.

Not Admiral, of course there is bias. It adds to the number of interactions with police. However the police homicide % to interactions show almost no difference as it relates to race. More interactions more probability of negative result regardless of race. So the bias adds to the number of interactions but miniscule (IMO) compared to police for that is simply placed in high crime areas that just happen to be AA.

 

[admiral2480]

https://scatter.wordpress.com/2016/07/11/yes-there-is-racial-bias-in-police-shootings/

There are articles debunking some evidence of that "empircal analysis". So you agree with Fryer that there is absolutely no racial bias in police shootings? That would be mighty naive.

There is certainly racial bias in the disproportionate profiling of minorities from the outset, but when it comes to being shot by police, no, the data does not support the claim that officers are more likely to shoot someone simply because the individual is black.

 

[oinkingANDboinking]

The treatment of African-Americans "was" barbaric back in the day....but that was then...not now. The problem nowadays is 1.) Race baiting politicians who stir up discontent/blame/anger so they can have or keep their job...and 2.) black communities in many places that bring trouble on themselves by not valuing an education...which leads to fewer employment opportunities...not adhering to rules and laws, having kids they can't fford, and believing the hatred spewed by the morons in 1.)....thus living in the past instead of moving forward.

The African/African-American race isn't at all blameless in history....they made slaves of Caucasian and other races...even their own...back in history. Then like now, their own people sold them out. Its not a white/black problem....it's now only a problem that black leaders can fix....BUT ONLY through education AND abiding by laws...getting rid of the drugs/gangs, going to work, and getting rid of the professional race baiters that run their communities/cities...and get rich while nothing changes for the people who elected them....MOVE FORWARD AND STOP WITH THIS TOTALLY IGNORANT "RACIST" TALK.

This IS The Land of Opportunity....for those who will get off their azzes and WORK FOR IT.

SMH....

 

[MR_ARKANSAS]

There is certainly racial bias in the disproportionate profiling of minorities from the outset, but when it comes to being shot by police, no, the data does not support the claim that officers are more likely to shoot someone simply because the individual is black.

That's a pretty subjective statement. No one said it's "simply" because they are black. It's not a simple issue. To say there is absolutely no racial bias in police involved shootings is naive as can be. The numbers don't show a disproportionate discrimination towards shooting blacks in raw numbers but when adjusted for population there is a problem and it has nothing to do with criminality. That has been debunked over and over again.

 

[MR_ARKANSAS]

So we're going to ignore that interactions with police offers are higher in high crime areas to prove a point? If there are more interactions then there is greater opportunity for both positive and negative results.

No sir. I'm just pointing out that your point about blacks being shot at a higher rate because of their criminality isn't a fair and accurate statement that based on analysis.

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

No sir. I'm just pointing out that your point about blacks being shot at a higher rate because of their criminality isn't a fair and accurate statement that based on analysis.

How so? Is every race shot at the same % in comparison to police stops including Blacks just a happenstance? That number is level across the board. You simply can't ignore that and then claim a higher bias. That number would be different if true.

 

[admiral2480]

That's a pretty subjective statement. No one said it's "simply" because they are black. It's not a simple issue. To say there is absolutely no racial bias in police involved shootings is naive as can be. The numbers don't show a disproportionate discrimination towards shooting blacks in raw numbers but when adjusted for population there is a problem and it has nothing to do with criminality. That has been debunked over and over again.

It isn't subjective when the data shows no significant difference between the rate of officer involved shootings between blacks and whites. That's how proper statistics works.There is a higher rate of profiling and use of force in general based upon race, but the data shows that is not the case when it comes to officer involved shootings.

There definitely should be reform in terms of police profiling and decriminalizing the many non-violent offenses which disproportionately incarcerate minorities. However, the only way any of these movements are going to gain any traction and make any progress is when both sides agree to stick with facts and empirical results. Jumping to conclusions is the worst approach one could take. Many of the cases trumpeted as abuse of power and excessive force by police have proven to be justified due to the actions of the deceased. When the facts come out, it ends up weakening the movement.

 

[MR_ARKANSAS]

It isn't subjective when the data shows no significant difference between the rate of officer involved shootings between blacks and whites. That's how proper statistics works.There is a higher rate of profiling and use of force in general based upon race, but the data shows that is not the case when it comes to officer involved shootings.

There definitely should be reform in terms of police profiling and decriminalizing the many non-violent offenses which disproportionately incarcerate minorities. However, the only way any of these movements are going to gain any traction and make any progress is when both sides agree to stick with facts and empirical results. Jumping to conclusions is the worst approach one could take. Many of the cases trumpeted as abuse of power and excessive force by police have proven to be justified due to the actions of the deceased. When the facts come out, it ends up weakening the movement.

I am talking about your choice of words. This isn't "simple" by any stretch of the imagination. Saying there is no significant difference when the total number of deaths are near equal in 13% of the population as it is in 60+% of the population.....I can end this conversation here. We can clearly beg to differ. There is a problem. If you disagree I can respect that.

 

[admiral2480]

I am talking about your choice of words. This isn't "simple" by any stretch of the imagination. Saying there is no significant difference when the total number of deaths are near equal in 13% of the population as it is in 60+% of the population.....I can end this conversation here. We can clearly beg to differ. There is a problem. If you disagree I can respect that.

The whole movement is based upon race, is it not? Therefore, when researchers analyze the race issue with respect to officer involved shootings, they are "simply" isolating that particular variable by controlling other influences. It's not to say it is a simple matter. To think that is what I was saying is ridiculous. It is only to say that race has not played a significant role in whether an officer chooses to pull the trigger when looking at data across the country. The study points out areas where race does come into play and we certainly need to find ways to improve there, but we can't twist other facts into something that isn't there.

 

[MR_ARKANSAS]

What is there to twist? If you are adjusting for the population (which only makes sense), police killed blacks at three times the rate of whites in 2015. Black men made up roughly 40% of those killed while unarmed while being just 6% of the population. If your beef is with adjusting numbers for the population then I get your point in claiming police are no less likely bur otherwise I don't.

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

What is there to twist? If you are adjusting for the population (which only makes sense), police killed blacks at three times the rate of whites in 2015. Black men made up roughly 40% of those killed while unarmed while being just 6% of the population. If your beef is with adjusting numbers for the population then I get your point in claiming police are no less likely bur otherwise I don't.

That's because you are refusing to account for the fact that blacks are committing crime at an astronomical rate per capita compared to every other race in our nation. That means they are encountering police at that same higher rate PLUS the additional stops brought forth through bias. My viewpoint can't be taken seriously if I said bias didn't exist but your viewpoint can't be taken seriously until you acknowledge the highly skewed need for extensive policing that leads to greater numbers of interactions with police than any other race per capita. Those are facts neither of us get to ignore if we want to respectfully address the topic.

 

[Master of Reality]

I'd like to take all of the white biggots and black Biggots and throw all of their asses on an island together.

you probably need to learn how to spell bigot first so they will know you are talking to them.

Geezus H

 

[Master of Reality]

I shook my head as well when I read @treestandhog Post. I thought it was quite interesting when he stated that treatment of blacks were barbaric "back in the day". I would love to know what he thought the Tulsa shooting was because that seemed pretty cruel to me. Also, I thought it was quite sad that he refused to acknowledge that this is an AMERICAN issue not just an black issue.

in order for that Tulsa shooting to have been a "black" issue, you must believe that the only reason she shot that guy was because he was black. That is a huge accusation to make of someone, where is your proof ?

 

[qteezy]

in order for that Tulsa shooting to have been a "black" issue, you must believe that the only reason she shot that guy was because he was black. That is a huge accusation to make of someone, where is your proof ?

I said that the act was barbaric. I also said it was sad that Treestandhog felt this these issues were "black" issues and not American issues.

 

[MR_ARKANSAS]

That's because you are refusing to account for the fact that blacks are committing crime at an astronomical rate per capita compared to every other race in our nation. That means they are encountering police at that same higher rate PLUS the additional stops brought forth through bias. My viewpoint can't be taken seriously if I said bias didn't exist but your viewpoint can't be taken seriously until you acknowledge the highly skewed need for extensive policing that leads to greater numbers of interactions with police than any other race per capita. Those are facts neither of us get to ignore if we want to respectfully address the topic.

Check out that dash camera footage from Charlottes that was just released and then get back to me.

 

[treestandhog]

^^^^Perfect example of the problem right here.

Why pray tell was my comment an example of the problem??? I want the African-American community to be succesful in life. I have several black friends that I dearly love and admire. They WORK....and dont act foolish...take care of their families and are great members of their communities. AND....there are several white people I know that arent worth shooting. I would give my life for my black friends just as quickly as I would my white friends.

I just wont tolerate foolish behavior....whether white or black....and that includes rioting, killing, raping, stealing,etc.... Theres NO EXCUSE for it....

 

[Woodshed 1914]

Why pray tell was my comment an example of the problem??? I want the African-American community to be succesful in life. I have several black friends that I dearly love and admire. They WORK....and dont act foolish...take care of their families and are great members of their communities. AND....there are several white people I know that arent worth shooting. I would give my life for my black friends just as quickly as I would my white friends.

I just wont tolerate foolish behavior....whether white or black....and that includes rioting, killing, raping, stealing,etc.... Theres NO EXCUSE for it....

 

[Woodshed 1914]

Another unarmed black man shot down by police in California yesterday. He was not a suspect of any crime and his sister called the police to help him. Keep acting as of this isn't a real problem.