OT Religious thread do not open if easily offended.

[BOSSHOGFREE]

That's such a fantastic little paradox.

The basis of faith and Christianity was created from the Bible, yet the attempt to understand it intellectually greatly differs from an understanding of it through faith. A faith that doesn't exist without Bible's creation.

It's like the Star Wars fans that argue with George Lucas on the world of Star Wars. Awesome!

I completely disagree with the other poster. Intellectual knowledge is what it is no matter if the person has belief/doubt. What sepperates believers from non believers is faith. It's as simple as that. We are all designed with free will. That is the master plan.....

If we were all made as mindless followers who did God's bidding regardless then there is no reciprocity of love. In fact that would be cruel to us. Think as if a carpenter made a chair but the chair could deny the carpenter the ability to sit in it. There must be a relationship there where the chair is willing. Hence an intellectual communion. Would you want to live eternity with nothing but mindless followers OR other truly intellectual beings that choose to return the love you give to them? In order for God to get love he had to give love in the form of free will. However free will is not always the type of gift we want it to be. Pain, hardships, etc also come from our decisions and the decisions of others. But God's plan for this is simple. He is there for us always ready and willing to comfort OR use the situation to bring others closer to understanding the strength of his love.....

Deep stuff. But do you expect the creator of everything to be a simple study? I dont.

Believing does not make you a better bible scholar than a non believer. However following the true teachings of Christ will no doubt make you a beter person than you once were though. Most of the "right and wrong" moral constructs of our society come from the Bible. They work too.

 

[fleckabelly]

You don't need me, just study history and use a little common sense. Had the writers of the Constitution meant it the way the SCOTUS ruled, there wouldn't have been any Ten Commandments or the Lord's Prayer hanging in federal buildings for 200 years. There would have been no national holidays based on Christianity like Christmas and Easter. There would have been no prayer in schools for 200 years. If their intent was the same as the SCOTUS ruling, they would have stopped all of that from the start. And yeah, the far left and often atheist college profs get confused about a lot of things.

Yea, forget the notion that something written 250 years may need to be open for interpretation, let's take the constitution as it's written from a time when:

Women couldn’t vote

The gun of choice was a single-shot musket

Slavery was not only allowed, but often encouraged

The average life expectancy was around 35-40 years of age

Electricity was still essentially science fiction

It was acceptable to find a group of people, we now call them Native Americans, and simply take their land in the name of “freedom”

A gun shot to the leg typically meant amputation

13 year old girls were often married off (in arranged marriages where they had no option) to much older men

If you stole someone’s horse you could be hanged

Going out to dinner meant taking the family out for a hunt

And many laughable others. The constitution is a living document and allowing the Courts to make interpretations of it's meaning is what allowed our country to progress out of the 1700's.

 

[rzrbk7777]

That's such a fantastic little paradox.

The basis of faith and Christianity was created from the Bible, yet the attempt to understand it intellectually greatly differs from an understanding of it through faith. A faith that doesn't exist without Bible's creation.

It's like the Star Wars fans that argue with George Lucas on the world of Star Wars. Awesome!

If all you see the bible as is a book, you will see it differently(regardless of intellect) than someone who sees it as a divine message from the Creator. It's not complicated and the book itself will address any questions you have if you look hard enough. Look up the Pharasees, they were the biblical scholars of Jesus' day. Knew the Old Testament by heart. Note how Jesus interacted with them.

 

[fleckabelly]

I completely disagree with the other poster. Intellectual knowledge us the same no matter the person or their belief/doubt. What sepperated believer from non believers is faith. It's as simple as that. We are all designed with free will. That is the master plan.....

If we were all made as mindless followers who did God's bidding regardless then there is no reciprocity of love. In fact that would be cruel. Think as if a carpenter made a chair but the chair could deny the carpenter the ability to sit in it. There must be a relationship there where the chair is willing. Hence an intellectual communion. Would you want to live eternity with nothing but mindless followers or other truly intellectual beings that choose to return the love you give to them?

Believing does not make you a better bible scholar than a non believer. However ollowing the true teachings of Christ will no doubt make you a beter person than you once were though. Most of the "right and wrong" moral constructs of our society come from the Bible. They work too.

Good post.

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

Yea, forget the notion that something written 250 years may need to be open for interpretation, let's take the constitution as it's written from a time when:

Women couldn’t vote

The gun of choice was a single-shot musket

Slavery was not only allowed, but often encouraged

The average life expectancy was around 35-40 years of age

Electricity was still essentially science fiction

It was acceptable to find a group of people, we now call them Native Americans, and simply take their land in the name of “freedom”

A gun shot to the leg typically meant amputation

13 year old girls were often married off (in arranged marriages where they had no option) to much older men

If you stole someone’s horse you could be hanged

Going out to dinner meant taking the family out for a hunt

And many laughable others. The constitution is a living document and allowing the Courts to make interpretations of it's meaning is what allowed our country to progress out of the 1700's.

The bible is not open for progressive review. You either believe it is the divine and inspired word of God or you don't. There is no middle ground

 

[fleckabelly]

If all you see the bible as is a book, you will see it differently(regardless of intellect) than someone who sees it as a divine message from the Creator. It's not complicated and the book itself will address any questions you have if you look hard enough. Look up the Pharasees, they were the biblical scholars of Jesus' day. Knew the Old Testament by heart. Note how Jesus interacted with them.

Were these divine messages from the creator or writing from men with a primitive understanding of all matters:

• Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. Leviticus 19:19
• Ye shall not round the corners of your heads. Leviticus 19:27
• All that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you. Leviticus 9:10
• Thou shalt not boil a kid in its mother’s milk. Exodus 23:19

• When a woman has a discharge, if her discharge in her body is blood, she shall continue in her menstrual impurity for seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening. Everything also on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean, and everything on which she sits shall be unclean. Leviticus 15: 19-20
• When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand. Deuteronomy 25:11-12

• Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18
• He [Josiah] executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them…. He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD’s Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since. 2 Kings 23:20-25 NLT

• You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT
• Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. Ephesians 6:5 NLT

FWIW, I'm not arguing against Christianity, but taking the writings from men that lived thousands of years ago as the word of God, is absurd.

 

[fleckabelly]

The bible is not open for progressive review. You either believe it is the divine word of God or you don't. There is no middle ground

Wrong book.

 

[rzrbk7777]

Yea, forget the notion that something written 250 years may need to be open for interpretation, let's take the constitution as it's written from a time when:

Women couldn’t vote

The gun of choice was a single-shot musket

Slavery was not only allowed, but often encouraged

The average life expectancy was around 35-40 years of age

Electricity was still essentially science fiction

It was acceptable to find a group of people, we now call them Native Americans, and simply take their land in the name of “freedom”

A gun shot to the leg typically meant amputation

13 year old girls were often married off (in arranged marriages where they had no option) to much older men

If you stole someone’s horse you could be hanged

Going out to dinner meant taking the family out for a hunt

And many laughable others. The constitution is a living document and allowing the Courts to make interpretations of it's meaning is what allowed our country to progress out of the 1700's.

So now, the Constitution is irrelevent unless interpreted to cater to your beliefs.

That constitution was and is about freedom the likes of which the world had never before seen. The result was unprecedented growth as a country to the point where less than 200 years later, we were the richest and most powerful country on earth. A place where people from all over the world came to escape political and religious persecution and try to succeed to the limits their talent and work ethic allowed. And we had freedom, even from those who wanted to stifle us. The constitution provided it. How do you think you have the right to about religion?

You folks that listen to Obama's living document BS need to grasp that whatever freedoms you allow to be taken from others for your agenda will be freedoms that you will lose also. Our forefathers put things together so that we could say what we want, believe what we want, and live like we want within the law. It was designed to allow freedom to trump all other things, including religion.

Be careful when you are willing to give some of those freedoms up in order to stifle those you don't like. You never know when the reins will belong to somebody that doesn't like what you believe. And once the freedom to believe as you wish is gone, it will be gone for you too.

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

Were these divine messages from the creator or writing from men with a primitive understanding of all matters:

• Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. Leviticus 19:19
• Ye shall not round the corners of your heads. Leviticus 19:27
• All that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you. Leviticus 9:10
• Thou shalt not boil a kid in its mother’s milk. Exodus 23:19

• When a woman has a discharge, if her discharge in her body is blood, she shall continue in her menstrual impurity for seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening. Everything also on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean, and everything on which she sits shall be unclean. Leviticus 15: 19-20
• When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand. Deuteronomy 25:11-12

• Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18
• He [Josiah] executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them…. He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD’s Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since. 2 Kings 23:20-25 NLT

• You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT
• Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. Ephesians 6:5 NLT

FWIW, I'm not arguing against Christianity, but taking the writings from men that lived thousands of years ago as the word of God, is absurd.

I see an awful lot of old law there that is to be "respected". The message to slaves in Ephesians is the same to every man. Go about your life with respect and service. Note the passage from the same book I list below

As for your oversight of the new covenant I'll give you these new covenant verses

Hebrews 7:18
18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless

Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Ephesians 2:15
By setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

Until Jesus returns were under his law and his covenant that fulfilled the old law. The old law did not die but was superseded.

 

[rzrbk7777]

Were these divine messages from the creator or writing from men with a primitive understanding of all matters:

• Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. Leviticus 19:19
• Ye shall not round the corners of your heads. Leviticus 19:27
• All that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you. Leviticus 9:10
• Thou shalt not boil a kid in its mother’s milk. Exodus 23:19

• When a woman has a discharge, if her discharge in her body is blood, she shall continue in her menstrual impurity for seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening. Everything also on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean, and everything on which she sits shall be unclean. Leviticus 15: 19-20
• When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand. Deuteronomy 25:11-12

• Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18
• He [Josiah] executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them…. He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD’s Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since. 2 Kings 23:20-25 NLT

• You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT
• Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. Ephesians 6:5 NLT

FWIW, I'm not arguing against Christianity, but taking the writings from men that lived thousands of years ago as the word of God, is absurd.

Find a red letter Bible and study the words of Jesus. The bible, when taken piece by piece, is easily confusing. For Christians, the teachings of Jesus himself are above all else. Go and see what He said.

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

Find a red letter Bible and study the words of Jesus. The bible, when taken piece by piece, is easily confusing. For Christians, the teachings of Jesus himself are above all else. Go and see what He said.

This is not fully factual. The word of God IS the words of Christ and IS the message of the Holy Spirit. The lessons of psalms are no less than that of Matthew. The bible is one message that has separate parts.

The Old Testament is used to show the continuous failure of man in his inability to fulfill the law on his own. We are Gods image but impure due to the sin we chose. Thus a number of examples of why we need a supernatural intervention. This was prophesied from the beginning. It was Gids design.

Enter Jesus and his new covenant. John 13:34 A new commandment I give you, love one another as I have loved you

The lessons of the OT and for telling of the messiah build the platform for everything Jesus did and why he did it.

 

[fleckabelly]

So now, the Constitution is irrelevent unless interpreted to cater to your beliefs.

That constitution was and is about freedom the likes of which the world had never before seen. The result was unprecedented growth as a country to the point where less than 200 years later, we were the richest and most powerful country on earth. A place where people from all over the world came to escape political and religious persecution and try to succeed to the limits their talent and work ethic allowed. And we had freedom, even from those who wanted to stifle us. The constitution provided it. How do you think you have the right to about religion?

You folks that listen to Obama's living document BS need to grasp that whatever freedoms you allow to be taken from others for your agenda will be freedoms that you will lose also. Our forefathers put things together so that we could say what we want, believe what we want, and live like we want within the law. It was designed to allow freedom to trump all other things, including religion.

Be careful when you are willing to give some of those freedoms up in order to stifle those you don't like. You never know when the reins will belong to somebody that doesn't like what you believe. And once the freedom to believe as you wish is gone, it will be gone for you too.

The basis of our political systems is the right of the people to make and to alter their constitutions of government.
— George Washington

 

[Charlie B Barkin]

In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.[2]

D.The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia’s concluding day, December 25th, to be Jesus’ birthday.

E.Christians had little success, however, refining the practices of Saturnalia. As Stephen Nissenbaum, professor history at the University of Massachussetts, Amherst, writes, “In return for ensuring massive observance of the anniversary of the Savior’s birth by assigning it to this resonant date, the Church for its part tacitly agreed to allow the holiday to be celebrated more or less the way it had always been.” The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc.....

My type of holiday.

 

[fleckabelly]

I see an awful lot of old law there that is to be "respected". The message to slaves in Ephesians is the same to every man. Go about your life with respect and service. Note the passage from the same book I list below

As for your oversight of the new covenant I'll give you these new covenant verses

Hebrews 7:18
18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless

Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Ephesians 2:15
By setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

Until Jesus returns were under his law and his covenant that fulfilled the old law. The old law did not die but was superseded.

This was my point. What I posted those for was to 7777 for saying the bible is the word of god, which is absurd.

There are many things written in the bible that common sense tells us should be taken with an understanding of the time that it was written.

It's difficult for me to let asinine statements go by claiming the bible to be some infallible holy artifact, written as God's voice.

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

This was my point. What I posted those for was to 7777 for saying the bible is the word of god, which is absurd.

There are many things written in the bible that common sense tells us should be taken with an understanding of the time that it was written.

It's difficult for me to let asinine statements go by claiming the bible to be some infallible holy artifact, written as God's voice.

The bible IS the inspired word of God. If you dont believe that than you don't believe in any of the bible. Which, you have free will to do. God planned for a new covenant, it was prophecied. He set out to give us the example of our failure because we are human not gods. Our nature is to doubt. We would have never believed without first trying to fulfill the law on our own. Which we did try and of course failed miserably. We "Attempted to be as good as a God". The old testiment shows us that it will never work and then forces us to accept WHY we need Jesus (especially from a 1st century mindset). Humans corruot everything they touch, even the word of God. Today we see it as the foundation of which Jesus' church was built upon.

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.[2]

D.The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia’s concluding day, December 25th, to be Jesus’ birthday.

E.Christians had little success, however, refining the practices of Saturnalia. As Stephen Nissenbaum, professor history at the University of Massachussetts, Amherst, writes, “In return for ensuring massive observance of the anniversary of the Savior’s birth by assigning it to this resonant date, the Church for its part tacitly agreed to allow the holiday to be celebrated more or less the way it had always been.” The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc.....

My type of holiday.

Yeah, it was a pagan holiday. The trees the wreaths darn near all of it. Plus the bible descriptions of the census place the birth of Christ in the 1st half of the year I believe.

 

[fleckabelly]

The bible IS the inspired word of God. If you dont believe that than you don't believe in any of the bible. God planned for a new covenant, it was prophecied. He set out to give us the example of our failure because we are human not gods. Our nature is to doubt. We would have never believed without first trying to fulfill the law on our own. Which we did try and of course failed miserably. We "Attempted to be as good as a God". The old testiment shows us that it will never work and then forces us to accept WHY we need Jesus (especially from a 1st century mindset). Humans corruot everything they touch, even the word of God. Today we see it as the foundation of which Jesus' church was built upon.

No, that's not true. Your belief is not the correct belief. You can believe it's the word of god. You can also believe it's man's interpretation of the word of God. You can also believe it's the Catholic Church's interpretation of man's interpretation of the word of God.

I believe it to be nothing more than an enormously edited version of a collection of stories. Written by primitive men of events, ideas, and beliefs from a different time period. Where ideas of gods, ghosts, and mysticism were the science of the time. But that's just me.

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

No, that's not true. Your belief is not the correct belief. You can believe it's the word of god. You can also believe it's man's interpretation of the word of God. You can also believe it's the Catholic Church's interpretation of man's interpretation of the word of God.

I believe it to be nothing more than an enormously edited version of a collection of stories. Written by primitive men of events, ideas, and beliefs from a different time period. Where ideas of gods, ghosts, and mysticism were the science of the time. But that's just me.

I cleary stated that if you don't believe that then you don't believe in the bible and that's your choice.

But one can't believe just parts of the bible. It is either the inspired word of God or it is not. We all get to decide for ourselves. That's why I belive God is a loving God and is the one true God. Because only a loving God would care for us so much that he wouldn't force us to love him back against our will.

Now, keep in mind that within the Bible is a preplanned monumental shift in salvation. Things did change.

As a parent I love my children and I punish them for doing things that could harm them, others, or their future. The Bible tells us that God does love us as his children and will punish those who don't do the right things and that punishment is final & eternal. But he loves us anyways and allows us to chose our own path because of it even if we chose against him. He desires an eternal relationship but only with thkse who love and respect his authority. Only with several who follow his son. Only with those who want to be with him and love him as he loves them. But only if it's our own choice.

I don't want my children to fain love for me as a father. I want them to love me fully because I love them fully. So, it is the same with God and his children.

It resonates with me. I hope it does one day for you. I'm a bad example but I'm working on it.

 

[fleckabelly]

I cleary stated that if you don't believe that then you don't believe in the bible and that's your choice.

But one can't believe just parts of the bible. It is either the inspired word of God or it is not. We all get to decide for ourselves. That's why I belive God is a loving God and is the one true God. Because only a loving God would care for us so much that he wouldn't force us to love him back against our will.

Now, keep in mind that within the Bible is a preplanned monumental shift in salvation. Things did change.

As a parent I love my children and I punish them for doing things that could harm them, others, or their future. The Bible tells us that God does love us as his children and will punish those who don't do the right things and that punishment is final & eternal. But he loves us anyways and allows us to chose our own path because of it even if we chose against him. He wants a communion but only with thise who love and respect his authority.

It resonates with me. I hope it does one day for you. I'm a bad example but I'm working on it.

Fair enough.

I'm saying that there are some that believe in the bible is god's word, but that word has been interpreted through man and edited through the church. I know this because my uncle is a priest at Trinity Episcopal Church in NYC and this is his belief to an extent.

Either way, glad to have a civil debate about this.

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

Fair enough.

I'm saying that there are some that believe in the bible is god's word, but that word has been interpreted through man and edited through the church. I know this because my uncle is a priest at Trinity Episcopal Church in NYC and this is his belief to an extent.

Either way, glad to have a civil debate about this.

True, man did in fact write the books of the bible. The early version of the new testiment was canonized in 200 and the following 120 years led to the basic version we have today. Many of the "books" were letters to different churches or regions. These correspondence had to be gathered and reviewed for validity. There were not cars, trains, phones, or Internet then to easily share information.

If I believe that God is all powerful (and I do) then I believe he guided that search to produce what documents we need for the time that it is known.

 

[rzrbk7777]

The basis of our political systems is the right of the people to make and to alter their constitutions of government.
— George Washington

And that is through amendments, not Supreme Court rulings and executive orders. The RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE, not a group of judges or rogue presidents. Big difference.

 

[shnuke]

I am self defined bible beating Christian so let's get that out of the way.

Our country was founded on religious freedom and rights to free speech. We are a Christian nation, no doubt about it.

I don't feel threatened by any other religion. And, I have no issue with people attacking my religion. Actually, Jesus teaches that one should expect that and welcome that. It's not easy but it's a foundation of Christianity.

Finally, and this is my opinion only, but I scoff at people comparing the Bible to the Quran or any other book, teaching, or laws. If one reads the New Testament and the Gospels it is a guide to how to live. It's not rules - actually it tells us that rules are of and by man and are irrelevant to our faith and to God. Further it tells us that faith without acts is like a fruit tree that doesn't bear fruit.

So, bring it. I celebrate Christmas. I celebrate my faith in a way that tries to shine a light showing the Grace that Jesus has given me. And, I certainly know that it was not my acts that 'earned' that Grace. It is available to all. It is simple but not easy. By the way, I try really hard and I suck at it. But, I do try.

I see stuff like this and I don't like it but I do understand and expect it. Have you seen the outpouring of people mocking prayer for the people impacted in San Bernadino? Again, sad but I have come to expect it.

Faith with Acts will always win over words.

Rant over.

Amen
The problem I have is if it was a Muslim holiday, or a Gay pride day, they would never ever mention not having a representation of that holiday for fear of legal reprisal and offending. But since it is a Christian, yes Christian based holiday they feel it is fare game to go after it.

But as you said it is a expected thing and Oppression, and suppression of all this Christian is only going to get worse and more frequent. We are living in the last days and hours.

 

[shnuke]

True, man did in fact write the books of the bible. The early version of the new testiment was canonized in 200 and the following 120 years led to the basic version we have today. Many of the "books" were letters to different churches or regions. These correspondence had to be gathered and reviewed for validity. There were not cars, trains, phones, or Internet then to easily share information.

If I believe that God is all powerful (and I do) then I believe he guided that search to produce what documents we need for the time that it is known.

I agree!
The Bible is the inspired word of God. As that belief, you believe that The Holy Spirit inspired men of God to write the truth and Words of God in manuscript that has since been translated to what we know now as the Word of god (the Bible.) The stupid argument that the Bible was wrote by man and there for is full of errors and is a worldly book is a very secular, circular argument that show things from a worldly, faithless mind set.

 

[shnuke]

But as a believer in Christ's teachings I acknowledge that not baking a cake for anyone for reasons of sin is directly opposed to the scripture.

How can we show the love of Christ to sinners by excluding them from anything we do. As a matter of US rights I see your point and it is noted. I also will note the failure in the logic of Christians whO do not embrace EVWRYONE the way Christ embraced the world. This gives "Christians" the clear view of hypocrisy and that then can be the message non belivers see as their reflection of Christ himself. That is not what we are called to do.

Sin is sin. No doubt about it. No one's sin is greater than any other. Going to church every Sunday does not make our sin go away, accepting God's grace does. However the next step is to live a life of Christ. Jesus embraced the lowest of the low. Christians, as seen by the public today, don't have the correct image.

Jesus washed the feet of sinners publicly while we openly refuse them publicly. That is not shining the light of Christ. Yes, we are commanded to call out the sin of believers as they represent the body of Christ. We are also commanded not only to NOT judge non believers but embrace every one of them.

Sin is sin and it is wrong. But how will sinners ever come to know the love of Christ and through that love desire to live as he did if we do not live a desirable life that shows them just how good it can be?

Again, I have a long way to go

Well first of all God Calls us to love all mankind and show them love. nowhere in the bible does it says to help or support people in there sin. So yes making a cake for a gay wedding is supporting there sinful event. Your argument of them not being Christ like by refusing to make them a cake is just silly and off base.
Jesus never washed the feet of sinners, he washed the feet of his disciples as a way to show them that you are to go out and care for others as a servant in a service mindset. The sinners out in public he called them out and said to turn from there sins and follow him. He didn't see them sin and ask to wash there feet while in there sin.

Yes sin is sin, there is no bigger sin in God's eye then another. People don't realize anger is the same sin murder. As man we seem them differently, God sees all sin the same ( the thing that he can't stand, or be around and separates us from him.)

 

[shnuke]

That can't be said with any amount of certainty. There are plenty of religious scholars that have suggested it. Or at least suggested he may have been bisexual. There wasn't really any concept of sexual orientation at that time though and it wouldn't have been abnormal. Homoerotic relationships were extremely common.

LOL
this has to be in jest.
But incase you are serious and are that lacking in knowing truth from lies, and lack moral judgment, I will answer your question.
Ever hear of Sodom and Gomorrah? Why did God destroy it? because of the constant lust and sin of the people in homosexual relationships.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Or do you not know that the unrighteous2 will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: xneither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,3 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
So as a Christian saying Homosexuality is a sin and reading it from the bible and if by the bible we live, and use it as our authoritative rule of faith and conduct. then yes Homosexuality is a sin and No Jesus was not gay transgender or bisexual as you are insinuating. That my friend is offensive. But I guess that was your point to be vulgar and offensive.

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

Well first of all God Calls us to love all mankind and show them love. nowhere in the bible does it says to help or support people in there sin. So yes making a cake for a gay wedding is supporting there sinful event. Your argument of them not being Christ like by refusing to make them a cake is just silly and off base.
Jesus never washed the feet of sinners, he washed the feet of his disciples as a way to show them that you are to go out and care for others as a servant in a service mindset. The sinners out in public he called them out and said to turn from there sins and follow him. He didn't see them sin and ask to wash there feet while in there sin.

Yes sin is sin, there is no bigger sin in God's eye then another. People don't realize anger is the same sin murder. As man we seem them differently, God sees all sin the same ( the thing that he can't stand, or be around and separates us from him.)

Jesus stopped the stoning of a woman who committed adultry. Then chastised those who judged her.

The very opposite of what you claim. Jesus would have given the gay couple the cake for free and then told them to turn from their sin. Not once did Jesus ever turn away a common sinner for any reason.

The only sinners he rebuked from a standpoint of anger was the pharisees and the money changers at the temple. The people who felt above the sinners.

In this scenario the bakers are the "pharisees" giving judgement and not love

Jesus always embraced sinners....

Luke 7:36-50
36 When one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, he went to the Pharisee’s house and reclined at the table.37 A woman in that town who lived a sinful life learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee’s house, so she came there with an alabaster jar of perfume. 38 As she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.

39 When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, and the other fifty. 42 Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he forgave the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?”

43 Simon replied, “I suppose the one who had the bigger debt forgiven.”

“You have judged correctly,” Jesus said.

44 Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair.45 You did not give me kiss but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46 You did not put oil on my head but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47 Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.”

48 Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.

49 The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”

50 Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you
Footnotes:

 

[shnuke]

Jesus stopped the stoning of a woman who committed adultry. Then chastised those who judged her.

The very opposite of what you claim. Jesus would have given the gay couple the cake for free and then told them to turn from their sin. Not once did Jesus ever turn away a common sinner for any reason.

The only sinners he rebuked from a standpoint of anger was the pharisees and the money changers at the temple. The people who felt above the sinners.

In this scenario the bakers are the "pharisees" giving judgement and not love

Jesus always embraced sinners....

Luke 7:36-50
36 When one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, he went to the Pharisee’s house and reclined at the table.37 A woman in that town who lived a sinful life learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee’s house, so she came there with an alabaster jar of perfume. 38 As she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.

39 When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, and the other fifty. 42 Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he forgave the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?”

43 Simon replied, “I suppose the one who had the bigger debt forgiven.”

“You have judged correctly,” Jesus said.

44 Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair.45 You did not give me kiss but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46 You did not put oil on my head but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47 Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.”

48 Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.

49 The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”

50 Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you
Footnotes:

Well Let me ask you this then, If a homosexual couple came to Jesus and asked him " bless us so we may go on with your blessing in the public eye", he says "You are in sin and need to turn from it or I will have nothing to do with you since in your sin you have no part in me there for I have not part in you" would you say he is being mean and hateful and turning on people he should show love to them by doing as they asked? would he in someway being showing them love by blessing them as they walk in there sin? or is appropriate for him to say I can not support or bless you as what are doing is sin.
So in the same way making a cake to support a event that is counter to your beliefs and moral code set forth by Jesus himself is not what you should be found doing.
I truly think you are confusing them saying we cant make a cake for your wedding, it is counter to our belief system, from them saying leave my store sinners and never return, you make me sick.

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

Well Let me ask you this then, If a homosexual couple came to Jesus and asked him " bless us so we may go on with your blessing in the public eye", he says "You are in sin and need to turn from it or I will have nothing to do with you since in your sin you have no part in me there for I have not part in you" would you say he is being mean and hateful and turning on people he should show love to them by doing as they asked? would he in someway being showing them love by blessing them as they walk in there sin? or is appropriate for him to say I can not support or bless you as what are doing is sin.
So in the same way making a cake to support a event that is counter to your beliefs and moral code set forth by Jesus himself is not what you should be found doing.
I truly think you are confusing them saying we cant make a cake for your wedding, it is counter to our belief system, from them saying leave my store sinners and never return, you make me sick.

Yes, in fact Jesus did that very thing in his first miracle. He turned water into wine at a wedding party. Being drunken is a sin... no greater than homosexuality. They praised the family for saving the best wine for last when others normally bring out poor wine when every one had too much to drink already.

Not only would Jesus have given them a cake for free he would have asked them to come back and spend time with him or join him for a meal. The woman who committed adultry in those days was known by everyone. Marked as unclean in front of everyone. The same as the lepors or the dead man he touched as his entourage approached the funeral and he told the dead man to get up.

They weren't just sinners but unclean. Touching them meant that by the old law he was supposed to quarantine himself for multiple days.

Don't tell me that how we see homosexuals today is worse than that. Not only did Jesus forgive them but he placed himself directly in their uncleanliness. He took on their plight for them. Yes Jesus would have blessed them both and told them in order to reach heaven they must put off their sin and follow him. The cake is nothing. Jesus said give to Caesar what is Caesars and give to me what is mine. Who does the cake belong to? Jesus doesnt even want the cake, he wants their souls, and that baker missed an opportunity to develop a relationship that could have led to that very thing happening. Jesus would have found a way to show them that they are his children, shown them love, forgave them, and then told them to walk a new path of righteousness.

 

[shnuke]

Yes, in fact Jesus did that very thing in his first miracle. He turned water into wine at a wedding party. Being drunken is a sin... no greater than homosexuality. They praised the family for saving the best wine for last when others normally bring out poor wine when every one had too much to drink already.

Not only would Jesus have given them a cake for free he would have asked them to come back and spend time with him or join him for a meal. The woman who committed adultry in those days was known by everyone. Marked as unclean in front of everyone. The same as the lepors or the dead man he touched as his entourage approached the funeral and he told the dead man to get up.

They weren't just sinners but unclean. Touching them meant that by the old law he was supposed to quarantine himself for multiple days.

Don't tell me that how we see homosexuals today is worse than that. Not only did Jesus forgive them but he placed himself directly in their uncleanliness. He took on their plight for them. Yes Jesus would have blessed them both and told them in order to reach heaven they must put off their sin and follow him. The cake is nothing. Jesus said give to Caesar what is Caesars and give to me what is mine. Who does the cake belong to? Jesus doesnt even want the cake, he wants their souls, and that baker missed an opportunity to develop a relationship that could have led to that very thing happening. Jesus would have found a way to show them that they are his children, shown them love, forgave them, and then told them to walk a new path of righteousness.

Show me where in the bible he touch one dead body, in fact he said let the dead take care of the dead. When he rose Lazarus he called to him, he did not touch him. the little girl he told her to rise.
Where in the bible does it say he turned water into wine to make them drunk or more drunk. he in fact drank wine himself. but the bible says drink not to be drunk but be drunk in the holy spirit. so either you are agreeing with the other posters that the bible contradicts itself, or you are calling Jesus drunkard. As for the prostitute he didn't go preach to her has she slept with someone. he didn't go to her home as she was intimate with someone, or say I don't care your sinning I will show approval for what you are doing. He said whom here has not sinned cast the first stone, well every man knows he has sinned. When no one dared condemn her he said neither do I, GO and SIN NO MORE. He didn't say I don't condemn you so continue on in your life style, or I will now show approval for what you are doing.
He was a friend to sinners not a sinners friend. that means he brought them redemption, he did not associate with them. He alone could forgive sins and brought forgiveness to a repentant people.
He didn't sit at the tax collectors chair and have a glass of wine and help him collect taxes. He didn't go to the prostitutes house and talk with them as they undressed and started to perform sin in front of him hoping they would see his love and his way by him being there.
God calls us to forgive, love, and calls us to preach to the lost. he doesn't call for us to support sinners in there sin, making a cake for a gay wedding is indirectly showing support for 2 individuals indulging in a sinful act.
1 Timothy 5:22 Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.

with that said I don't think I am going to get my point across to you. your heart appears to be closed to the situation, like you have a personal interest in a friend or family member that is in a situation that requires you to be tolerant of their situation and are trying to justify it.

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

Show me where in the bible he touch one dead body, in fact he said let the dead take care of the dead. When he rose Lazarus he called to him, he did not touch him. the little girl he told her to rise.
Where in the bible does it say he turned water into wine to make them drunk or more drunk. he in fact drank wine himself. but the bible says drink not to be drunk but be drunk in the holy spirit. so either you are agreeing with the other posters that the bible contradicts itself, or you are calling Jesus drunkard. As for the prostitute he didn't go preach to her has she slept with someone. he didn't go to her home as she was intimate with someone, or say I don't care your sinning I will show approval for what you are doing. He said whom here has not sinned cast the first stone, well every man knows he has sinned. When no one dared condemn her he said neither do I, GO and SIN NO MORE. He didn't say I don't condemn you so continue on in your life style, or I will now show approval for what you are doing.
He was a friend to sinners not a sinners friend. that means he brought them redemption, he did not associate with them. He alone could forgive sins and brought forgiveness to a repentant people.
He didn't sit at the tax collectors chair and have a glass of wine and help him collect taxes. He didn't go to the prostitutes house and talk with them as they undressed and started to perform sin in front of him hoping they would see his love and his way by him being there.
God calls us to forgive, love, and calls us to preach to the lost. he doesn't call for us to support sinners in there sin, making a cake for a gay wedding is indirectly showing support for 2 individuals indulging in a sinful act.
1 Timothy 5:22 Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.

with that said I don't think I am going to get my point across to you. your heart appears to be closed to the situation, like you have a personal interest in a friend or family member that is in a situation that requires you to be tolerant of their situation and are trying to justify it.

There was a follow up to the verse you listed in the bible and I will post it below.

It is not my heart that is closed friend. I thought just like you until 2 years ago because that's the way man taught me. Ive learned to study the bible, Gods word, as it is written not as how man tells us but as how God tells us. Luke 7 Jesus walked right up and toutched the bier carrying a dead man's body and told him to get up. This made Jesus temporarily unclean in the eyes of the law. Just as it made the bearers on the funeral unclean. They had to quarantine themselves for a few days after making contact with anything in contact of a dead oerson. But Jeus rejected man's laws. Man's mentalities. Man's broken bitterness. He told them "I am doing my fathers work" when challenged with healing on the sabath.

Making a cake is no sin. It takes part in no sin. Not making the cake due to judgment of non believers sin is indeed a sin.

We cannot preach to sinners if we push them away. We cannot show love through judgement. We must make sinners stop and wonder at our actions. So filled with love that they have to know why.

We are called only to judge other Christians NOT non believers. Not making a cake in judging a non believer is not showing
the love of Christ. I've waited to post this desiring to show the full rationale before simply going straight to a clear verse. We are to judge those inside the church NOT outside of it and we ARE to be among those who sin but have not yet found Christ. Not only that but judging thosse out the church means there is wickidness inside you and it must be expeled.

I pray you read and take the time to fully comprehend every word of the scripture below that speaks on this very subject. We need more Christians to give love unconditionally. Then set about helping those people accept Christ once they can't live without that love. We will never lead them to Jesus without first loving them ourselves. And we will tarnish the church of Jesus if we proclaim to be his followers but do not love as he loved.

In this verse Paul says let me clear something up for you guys..... you see, the church in Corinth had a quarrel very similar to the one we are having now 2000 years ago. And Paul gave them/us a crystal clear answer.

1 Corinthians 5:9-13

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1 Corinthians 5:9-13 NIV
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9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people--
10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

 

[shnuke]

There was a follow up to the verse you listed in the bible and I will post it below.

It is not my heart that is closed friend. I thought just like you until 2 years ago because that's the way man taught me. Ive learned to study the bible, Gods word, as it is written not as how man tells us but as how God tells us. Luke 7 Jesus walked right up and toutched the bier carrying a dead man's body and told him to get up. This made Jesus temporarily unclean in the eyes of the law. Just as it made the bearers on the funeral unclean. They had to quarantine themselves for a few days after making contact with anything in contact of a dead oerson. But Jeus rejected man's laws. Man's mentalities. Man's broken bitterness. He told them "I am doing my fathers work" when challenged with healing on the sabath.

Making a cake is no sin. It takes part in no sin. Not making the cake due to judgment of non believers sin is indeed a sin.

We cannot preach to sinners if we push them away. We cannot show love through judgement. We must make sinners stop and wonder at our actions. So filled with love that they have to know why.

We are called only to judge other Christians NOT non believers. Not making a cake in judging a non believer is not showing
the love of Christ. I've waited to post this desiring to show the full rationale before simply going straight to a clear verse. We are to judge those inside the church NOT outside of it and we ARE to be among those who sin but have not yet found Christ. Not only that but judging thosse out the church means there is wickidness inside you and it must be expeled.

I pray you read and take the time to fully comprehend every word of the scripture below that speaks on this very subject. We need more Christians to give love unconditionally. Then set about helping those people accept Christ once they can't live without that love. We will never lead them to Jeasus without first loving them ourselves.

In this verse Paul says let me clear something up for you guys..... you see the church in Corinth had a quarrel very similar ti the one we are having now 2000 years ago. And Paul gave them/us a very clear answer.

1 Corinthians 5:9-13

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Translation:
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1 Corinthians 5:9-13 NIV
Previous BookPrevious ChapterRead the Full ChapterNext ChapterNext Book
Scripture Formatting
9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people--
10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

Let me ask you this it might give you more of a insite,
Do you feel it is ok for a preacher/pastor to agree to officiate a gay wedding?

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

Let me ask you this it might give you more of a insite,
Do you feel it is ok for a preacher/pastor to agree to officiate a gay wedding?

It is a completely different action. Marriage is clearly defined in the bible. Homosexuality is a sin. 100% agree with you. Even if they did though it would not be a holy ceremony in God's eyes. The ceremony is unholy, not the food or the building or the music.

As for the bakers of the cake or those who would attend the wedding. They aren't sinning. Would you say attending an idol temple for their worship ceremony so you can eat their food is on the same level as atrending a gay wedding and eating their cake?

1 Corinthians 8: 1-8

Food Sacrificed to Idols
1 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge.Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.
2The man who thinks he knows somethingdoes not yet know as he ought to know.
3But the man who loves God is known by God.
4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one.
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
7 But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled.
8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.

So food made for a gay wedding is sin filled but food specifically used as asacrifice for a fake God Idol is good? It's the same. It's just food. God doesn't care about the food. He wants their souls.

Paul says we can partake if we want to but don't if you don't want to.... but don't bring the Lord into it because he doesn't care.

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

@shnuke

How can we Shepard the flock if we aren't willing to go find the sheep

1 Corinthians 9: 19-23

19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law(though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.
23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

 

[shnuke]

It is a completely different action. Marriage is clearly defined in the bible. Homosexuality is a sin. 100% agree with you. Even if they did though it would not be a holy ceremony in God's eyes. The ceremony is unholy, not the food or the building or the music.

As for the bakers of the cake or those who would attend the wedding. They aren't sinning. Would you say attending an idol temple for their worship ceremony so you can eat their food is on the same level as atrending a gay wedding and eating their cake?

1 Corinthians 8: 1-8

Food Sacrificed to Idols
1 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge.Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.
2The man who thinks he knows somethingdoes not yet know as he ought to know.
3But the man who loves God is known by God.
4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one.
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
7 But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled.
8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.

So food made for a gay wedding is sin filled but food specifically used as asacrifice for a fake God Idol is good? It's the same. It's just food. God doesn't care about the food. He wants their souls.

Paul says we can partake if we want to but don't if you don't want to.... but don't bring the Lord into it because he doesn't care.

Actually then making a cake which is made to celebrate the event is sinful, creating for them knowing what they are using it to celebrate, is in the end knowingly condoning the unholy Union. The same way a pastor conducting the ceramony is condoning it.
After reading your posts I think you saying that these bakers are missing a prime opportunity to share gods saving grace. But in truth they are doing just that they are saying we can't do that because Homosexuality and there for your Union is unholy. And share scriptures with them. Now if they are flat out telling them to leave there store and showing no love or compassion then yes they are in the wrong.
But looking past all of that do you honestly believe that they are going to a random cake store and trying to get a cake? No they are truly being guided by satan to condemn and harass Gods children to put them in a bad light to the world and use it to show how hateful and intolerant Christains are. If it was any normal run in, the gay coupler would give the baker a few choice words tell there friends to never shop there and move on to a baker that is ok with there marriage. But instead they are suing making national news trying to make the bakery suffer and look bad to the world.
The thing is no sinner wants to be called out on there sin. They have to be told they are in the right and are being oppressed and deserve to have everyone approve there Union.
you don't give a alcoholic a case of beer, like you don't bake a cake for a couple to use to marry in a sinful Union.

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

Actually then making a cake which is made to celebrate the event is sinful, creating for them knowing what they are using it to celebrate, is in the end knowingly condoning the unholy Union. The same way a pastor conducting the ceramony is condoning it.
After reading your posts I think you saying that these bakers are missing a prime opportunity to share gods saving grace. But in truth they are doing just that they are saying we can't do that because Homosexuality and there for your Union is unholy. And share scriptures with them. Now if they are flat out telling them to leave there store and showing no love or compassion then yes they are in the wrong.
But looking past all of that do you honestly believe that they are going to a random cake store and trying to get a cake? No they are truly being guided by satan to condemn and harass Gods children to put them in a bad light to the world and use it to show how hateful and intolerant Christains are. If it was any normal run in, the gay coupler would give the baker a few choice words tell there friends to never shop there and move on to a baker that is ok with there marriage. But instead they are suing making national news trying to make the bakery suffer and look bad to the world.
The thing is no sinner wants to be called out on there sin. They have to be told they are in the right and are being oppressed and deserve to have everyone approve there Union.
you don't give a alcoholic a case of beer, like you don't bake a cake for a couple to use to marry in a sinful Union.

All of that is nothing more than your opinion and yoyr belief brother. I just provided the gospel that says that the food is nothing in God's eyes. The Idol temple means nothing to God. There is nothing there but people and building supplies. The food is not unclean because there is no other God. The cake is not unclean because it is not a holy ceremony.

The preacher of a Gay wedding sins by lying to the crowd and the participants if they declare it a "Holy ceremony" not because theboreacher is presenr. The baker of a cake has made no such declaration. They made food to eat for sinners. Jesus made wine to drink for sinners.

If somones sells alcohol at a grocery store and daily the town drunk comes in and buys his supply. Is the owner of the store a sinner? Is the cashier? In your eyes they are condoning the man's sin....

By your logic Jesus himself (the perfect living embodiment of God) was a sinner.

 

[shnuke]

@shnuke

How can we Shepard the flock if we aren't willing to go find the sheep

1 Corinthians 9: 19-23

19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law(though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.
23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

You are required to teach the word of God to the lost, not comply and support there desires. We are talking about avoiding being aligned with there sinful action. The bible say hate the sin love the sinner. If you take a cake order and fulfill it knowing what you are making it for you are partaking in there sin and not doing as God has you to do which is be in this world not of this world. If you make them a cake and obviously if you are doing asGod instructed and they know you are a Christian then they can say A Christan made our cake and they were ok with our union by making it got us.
What should be happening is you explain to them what the word of God says and talking to them about the love of Christ. Not making a Cake in approval of there Union.
Ezekiel 3:18-19 18"When I say to the wicked, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. 19"Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself.
Do not fool yourself into think you are saving them by being nice and accommodating there request, it will not have the effect you are looking for, you will will be sending the the message of a Chistains approval. Don't think for a second God won't require a answer for your actions in allowing them to go through with the union without your attempt to stop them and teach them what His word says.

God help you if you knowingly help a sinner carry out thier sin. If you have you better ask for forgiveness. I doubt you want to go to judgement and have to explain your human logic for assisting with the union. For Jesus will say depart from me you evil doer I never knew you.

 

[shnuke]

All of that is nothing more than your opinion and yoyr belief brother. I just provided the gospel that says that the food is nothing in God's eyes. The Idol temple means nothing to God. There is nothing there but people and building supplies. The food is not unclean because there is no other God. The cake is not unclean because it is not a holy ceremony.

The preacher of a Gay wedding sins by lying to the crowd and the participants if they declare it a "Holy ceremony" not because theboreacher is presenr. The baker of a cake has made no such declaration. They made food to eat for sinners. Jesus made wine to drink for sinners.

If somones sells alcohol at a grocery store and daily the town drunk comes in and buys his supply. Is the owner of the store a sinner? Is the cashier? In your eyes they are condoning the man's sin....

By your logic Jesus himself (the perfect living embodiment of God) was a sinner.

What? Dude you are so lost! You are talking food. I am talking condoning a immoral act by perticipating by make a cake knowing what is being used for. If you don't get that I guess we are on different pages.
And Jesus never ever ever perticipated in sin, he brought light to the lost he died for our sins. He became sin and yet he never sinned. He died the death we should die. With his death and resurrection the sin was washed away. God himself had to turn from Jesus as he died on the cross, why? Because he could stand to watch him die? No he couldn't look upon the sin that Jesus to with him upon the cross, because sin is detestable to him. If you knowingly perticipated in sin you are just as guilty as the lost.
Jesus died for our sins, not to justify your sin and give you a free pass to continue on in it. Do not confuse Jesus telling you to love your neighbor and go out and teach about me to the nations, with going out into the world partaking in sin to win a sinner.
Paul was talking about going out to the lost in thier enviorment and bring Christ to them, not joining in there sin to try to win them. We are to win the lost not join them to try to win them.
I think mr. Bosshogfree you really need to mediate on the word and seek God about his truth. May God reveal his truth In to your heart so you might know him more to the full. You don't want to be preaching and sharing false doctrine that will leave the lost worse off then you found them. I will do the same myself, for no man know God as we should and we all fall short in our true understanding of God.
God bless you. I hope you have a wonderful day.

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

You are required to teach the word of God to the lost, not comply and support there desires. We are talking about avoiding being aligned with there sinful action. The bible say hate the sin love the sinner. If you take a cake order and fulfill it knowing what you are making it for you are partaking in there sin and not doing as God has you to do which is be in this world not of this world. If you make them a cake and obviously if you are doing asGod instructed and they know you are a Christian then they can say A Christan made our cake and they were ok with our union by making it got us.
What should be happening is you explain to them what the word of God says and talking to them about the love of Christ. Not making a Cake in approval of there Union.
Ezekiel 3:18-19 18"When I say to the wicked, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. 19"Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself.
Do not fool yourself into think you are saving them by being nice and accommodating there request, it will not have the effect you are looking for, you will will be sending the the message of a Chistains approval. Don't think for a second God won't require a answer for your actions in allowing them to go through with the union without your attempt to stop them and teach them what His word says.

God help you if you knowingly help a sinner carry out thier sin. If you have you better ask for forgiveness. I doubt you want to go to judgement and have to explain your human logic for assisting with the union. For Jesus will say depart from me you evil doer I never knew you.

Doing your job by baking a cake is not support of sin nor does it condone sin. It's a cake. Again if you refuse to see the word of God as it relates to the food made specifically for idolatry worship then you have no desire to follow God's word. Making your own set of beliefs up and living a distorted "modern Christian" life is not what God wants. He wants you to follow his words. Not the crybof the times.

Revelations 3: 15-16
15 “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. I Would that you were either cold or hot!16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

The scripture you provided proves my point and not yours. You cannot preach to the wicked if you force then away, if you cannot find ground to speak on, you cannot love them (part of love IS challenging them with their sin) if you do not have a relationship with them. This can't happen without fist giving love.

Also stop trying to aplly old covenant law to new covenant theological practice. Do you really want to live fully under the old law? If you believe what you are typing you must also never plant 2 different seeds in the same field. Are you or your relative gardeners all sinners? Or is there a new covenant? Better stop eating home grown veggies from a small garden or you are condoning sin.... yeah, that's not a sin. But by your logic, total sinners.

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

What? Dude you are so lost! You are talking food. I am talking condoning a immoral act by perticipating by make a cake knowing what is being used for. If you don't get that I guess we are on different pages.
And Jesus never ever ever perticipated in sin, he brought light to the lost he died for our sins. He became sin and yet he never sinned. He died the death we should die. With his death and resurrection the sin was washed away. God himself had to turn from Jesus as he died on the cross, why? Because he could stand to watch him die? No he couldn't look upon the sin that Jesus to with him upon the cross, because sin is detestable to him. If you knowingly perticipated in sin you are just as guilty as the lost.
Jesus died for our sins, not to justify your sin and give you a free pass to continue on in it. Do not confuse Jesus telling you to love your neighbor and go out and teach about me to the nations, with going out into the world partaking in sin to win a sinner.
Paul was talking about going out to the lost in thier enviorment and bring Christ to them, not joining in there sin to try to win them. We are to win the lost not join them to try to win them.
I think mr. Bosshogfree you really need to mediate on the word and seek God about his truth. May God reveal his truth In to your heart so you might know him more to the full. You don't want to be preaching and sharing false doctrine that will leave the lost worse off then you found them. I will do the same myself, for no man know God as we should and we all fall short in our true understanding of God.
God bless you. I hope you have a wonderful day.

Jesus 100% turned water into wine for a wedding party at which all of the wine had already been drank and some in attendance had already drank too much wine.

Jesus didn't sin. Neither is the person baking a cake. You are as I once was. I truly believed it was not only my place but my duty to call out sinners. It is my place if they are Christians it is not my place if they are not. That is direct scripture. However I am to love them, and in that love they will come to know the love of Christ (which was not actively understood or acessable during the time of the old covenant) then once they have obtained my love with nothing asked in return we can discuss their sin.

We don't start with the sin discussion we start with love. Love ALL. Loving a person is not the same as condoning their sin, this much you agree. Then why would you not agree that baking a cake is not the same as condoning their sin. I can love a sinner with my heart and that's fine but I can't make a cake for a sinner with my hands? What if I make rhe cake with love in hope they see that I truly doblove them and want them in Gods fold? Rhe cake is not homosexuality, its a cake. It means what the baker wanrs it to mean. I can curse someone with a cake if I chose. Now thatbwould be a sin. A bitter nast cake wirh a hurtfull mesaage. Sin. Your thoughts are backwards to Jesus' actual teachings.

Your logic cannot rectify the eqation between love and actions and it never will be able to. Actions are only the effect if what is in your heart. Actions will never win you heaven. It cannot be earned. Your logic is yours and not the teachings of Christ. This can't be more clear.

 

[BOSSHOGFREE]

One final deeper thought. If choosing to create a cake for a gay wedding is condoning that sin ..... then what is choosing to create people who live in sin called?

They are both called love not sin. Free will forces Christians to be intertangled and ourselves released from sin daily. It's what's in our heart that guides us not the laws we must follow. If you want to follow laws in order to get to heaven I'm sorry but I won't see you there. If you follow Jesus' teachings because you love him ... because he first loveD you and therefore you are compelled to love his children as he asked you too. Then we will bask in his greatness together.

The why is more important than the what. Don't be spewed from his mouth.